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Using anchors for TR'ing/belaying a follow

Original Post
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616

Hello from the Wet coast :).

Having a discussion on belaying people through bolted anchors. Are there areas/walls around Denver where this is a common practice? Looking to confirm a couple experiences I've had visiting out West, and whether the beta received was possibly bad (regarding local practices of doing this).

ABB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 0

The norm everywhere is to minimize the wear on rap rings/quicklinks by lowering/tr'ing through quickdraws as much as possible. Very poor form to repeatedly tr through rings. Usually the last person to climb is lowered directly through the rings but it's not uncommon for them to rappel, further minimizing wear. There's been a huge proliferation of climbers but it's a fraction of a fraction who replace hardware. For those who clip bolts, donate to the ASCA and your local climbing organizations who are doing the heavy lifting and replacing hardware. And enjoy the fresh, beefy stainless!

Dan CO · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 60

If someone tells you it is ok to toprope through fixed hardware, they are misinformed. I can't imagine anyone who says otherwise has ever done any work to install/replace fixed hardware.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
DEF wrote:If someone tells you it is ok to toprope through fixed hardware, they are misinformed. I can't imagine anyone who says otherwise has ever done any work to install/replace fixed hardware.
Thanks ABB and DEF.

I didn't want to lead/color the response so I didn't provide any details. It would seem that the particular day/week I visited the areas were perhaps not the usual or representative crowd? In almost all cases we also practice no TR'ing through bolted anchors here in the East. I guess the info I received wasn't a surprise, as I had this preconceived notion that the climbing out West was more 'gym'-like. [that again is just an impression, likely reinforced by the roadside sport crags we were mostly climbing at] I don't recall if I actually used the bad beta on those days, I generally don't. Same for my partner. The routes (? Popular climbs?) as I recall had biners and/or quickclose bolt anchors, the ones with the spring gate for quick clipping.

That said - I read one mention that Table mountain may have people doing this. Would I assume this is unapproved? My specific memory was of the Catslab area in Clear Creek, and possibly 11 Mile Canyon although that doesn't make much sense because it's more wildernessy so might have that confused with a different trip (a year later) to South Platte(?). Are those areas known for a more lax ethic and/or climbers doing whatever they want?

Had another time in Red Rocks that, if I were to now assume follows similar practices, would fall under the same 'uninformed' or intentionally not-caring bad beta.

Not having a lot of sport climbing back East I never questioned the possibility that people would engage in this elsewhere as an acceptable norm. It's nearly never okay here in the East. This will help bring some closure to a debate we're having in another section.
curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 274
Kevin Heckeler wrote: I read one mention that Table mountain may have people doing this.
North table is easy to access and is mostly single pitch sport, so you get a lot of new, inexperienced people climbing there. i've politely asked people on several occasions to rap the route after its been cleaned, and if they don't know how to rap, i'll show them. it takes 10 minutes but saves someone else a lot of work in replacing worn out anchor points.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

If you are referring to my post in the other thread, I was talking about Table Mountain, CA near Sonora, not N. Table Mtn in Golden, CO. You asked if it was accepted practice to TR off of the anchors. I merely mentioned that it is not terribly uncommon to see people TR off of the Mussy hooks there after the 1st person leads the route (there is no top access for the most part). I still don't know that it is "acceptable", I still put in my own draws until I lower off when cleaning. Even the Mussy's get worn, as Marc showed in the other thread in a picture from ORG.

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

I always carry a few 3/8" stainless thread gate quick links with me. I get them at Home Depot. If there are no quick links on the anchor chains then I leave them for others to use. Does anybody else practice this or have any opinions on this method?

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155

Unfortunately there are walls around where top-roping through fixed hard-ware is extremely common practice but still equally frowned upon. The two examples that come to mind are table mountain and high wire craig in clear creek. In particular, the climb at high wire craig called 'stone cold moderate' has been used a toprope anchor so much that sawed about halfway through the mussy. lame!

Micah Klesick · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,971
DEF wrote:If someone tells you it is ok to toprope through fixed hardware, they are misinformed. I can't imagine anyone who says otherwise has ever done any work to install/replace fixed hardware.
I would disagree. If there are anchor biners on the route, then clip them, and don't feel bad when your follower TR's through them. If they are rings, don't TR through them, but feel free to lower on them.
It's becoming a much more common and encouraged practice to lower through rap rings and anchor biners. Obviously, if you are doing multiple sessions on a route, consider putting your own draws on it until you are done, but at least in the Oregon and Washington area, you are more than welcome, and actually encouraged in most places to lower off fixed hardware, rather than rapping. Those beefy steel rings and biners can handle thousands of lowers with out becoming compromised. And as the guy that installs them in the Portland area crags, please, lower rather than rap. The gear can handle it.
The only time you should not lower is if the rings or biners are aluminum. Then you should rap, otherwise lower away.
Obviously they will need to be replaced eventually. So if you aren't replacing them yourself, I'd encourage climbers to toss a donation to your location climbing organization to help replace them when needed. Or carry a few steel biners and rap rings in your climbing bag and replace them as needed.
jdberndt · · Seattle, WA · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 200
Micah Klesick wrote: I would disagree. If there are anchor biners on the route, then clip them, and don't feel bad when your follower TR's through them. If they are rings, don't TR through them, but feel free to lower on them. It's becoming a much more common and encouraged practice to lower through rap rings and anchor biners. Obviously, if you are doing multiple sessions on a route, consider putting your own draws on it until you are done, but at least in the Oregon and Washington area, you are more than welcome, and actually encouraged in most places to lower off fixed hardware, rather than rapping. Those beefy steel rings and biners can handle thousands of lowers with out becoming compromised. And as the guy that installs them in the Portland area crags, please, lower rather than rap. The gear can handle it. The only time you should not lower is if the rings or biners are aluminum. Then you should rap, otherwise lower away. Obviously they will need to be replaced eventually. So if you aren't replacing them yourself, I'd encourage climbers to toss a donation to your location climbing organization to help replace them when needed. Or carry a few steel biners and rap rings in your climbing bag and replace them as needed.
As the leader, I always place draws on the anchor bolts and lower. As the second (or last to TR), I always remove the draws, thread the rope through the chains or clip the biners, and then rap. What is the rationale behind lowering through the rings/biners rather than rapping? At least with rings, either way you have to untie to thread it. Is it just because it's faster than having pull up rope?
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

If you insist on not using gear on a regular route then maybe buy some beefy quick links to leave behind.

curt86iroc wrote: i've politely asked people on several occasions to rap the route after its been cleaned, and if they don't know how to rap, i'll show them.
Wow! Showing random people how to rap at a crag is way outside my comfort zone. I think I would just let that be. One lower at the end is not that bad, better than someone screwing up on rap and injuring/killing themselves.
Micah Klesick · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,971

It's super quick and safer to lower IMO. Once you get to the rings when following, go in direct with a draw, have your belayer give you a couple feet of slack, put a bight through the ring, tie it into a figure 8 and clip it to your harness (you can use a locking biner for it, or I just do two opposing draws), have your belayer take up the slack, and now you can untie your knot and lower down, and the extra couple feet of rope from untie. You're never off belay this way so it is safer. More people are injured rappelling than doing anything else in climbing.
(video of above method here: facebook.com/OutdoorResearc…)

Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20
Micah Klesick wrote: I would disagree. If there are anchor biners on the route, then clip them, and don't feel bad when your follower TR's through them. If they are rings, don't TR through them, but feel free to lower on them. It's becoming a much more common and encouraged practice to lower through rap rings and anchor biners. Obviously, if you are doing multiple sessions on a route, consider putting your own draws on it until you are done, but at least in the Oregon and Washington area, you are more than welcome, and actually encouraged in most places to lower off fixed hardware, rather than rapping. Those beefy steel rings and biners can handle thousands of lowers with out becoming compromised. And as the guy that installs them in the Portland area crags, please, lower rather than rap. The gear can handle it. The only time you should not lower is if the rings or biners are aluminum. Then you should rap, otherwise lower away. Obviously they will need to be replaced eventually. So if you aren't replacing them yourself, I'd encourage climbers to toss a donation to your location climbing organization to help replace them when needed. Or carry a few steel biners and rap rings in your climbing bag and replace them as needed.
My experience in the Colorado front range (3 years) and in New Mexico is to use the fixed gear to lower the last climber; leader puts in draws for anyone else who climbs the route. Only exception I've seen to that is a small crag in New York that used to be maintained by a well funded school and it was standard practice to TR on the fixed gear there.
Paul H · · Pennsylvania · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 5
jdberndt wrote: As the leader, I always place draws on the anchor bolts and lower. As the second (or last to TR), I always remove the draws, thread the rope through the chains or clip the biners, and then rap. What is the rationale behind lowering through the rings/biners rather than rapping? At least with rings, either way you have to untie to thread it. Is it just because it's faster than having pull up rope?
#1 it is safer to lower (I'm talking about just the last climber) through the rings vs. rappelling - less room for error in regard to belayer communication error, untying error, rappelling error (etc)

#2 it is possible to push a bight of rope through the rings (if large enough) and then the climber can tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it to their belay loop with a locker. This eliminates the climber ever being completely untied from the rope

The gear is there to be used - within reason of course.
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

I'm a fairly new climber, outside of bouldering, it didn't take me long to figure out how to set up a rap. It's really simple to do safely. I always rap because it is good practice and good redundancy to keep busy and smart with your actions on the wall. If someone doesn't have the experience or is timid about the setup, then I suggest they have their mentor teach them. Until then, the leader can set it up for them and rap down.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
jdberndt wrote: As the leader, I always place draws on the anchor bolts and lower. As the second (or last to TR), I always remove the draws, thread the rope through the chains or clip the biners, and then rap. What is the rationale behind lowering through the rings/biners rather than rapping? At least with rings, either way you have to untie to thread it. Is it just because it's faster than having pull up rope?
Faster and generally safer with good modern style bolted anchors (assuming both parties in your team are with it and have good safety protocol.) Of course there are some situations where it is still best to do the ol' rap thing, like when your rope would be running over rough rock, and absolutely rap, as Micah said, if going off aluminum rings (which should be replaced with steel asap). Aluminum rings are crap and basically only excusable in some kind of alpine or similar situation IMO (why not use biners, stronger and more useful to carry for emergencies?)
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

Also, wouldn't continuous rappelling help rope life over being lowered, throughout time? Less rubbing on the rock, which tends to happen more often than not, even with a good anchor set up.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
JoeGaribay wrote:I'm a fairly new climber, outside of bouldering, it didn't take me long to figure out how to set up a rap. It's really simple to do safely. I always rap because it is good practice and good redundancy to keep busy and smart with your actions on the wall. If someone doesn't have the experience or is timid about the setup, then I suggest they have their mentor teach them. Until then, the leader can set it up for them and rap down.
No Joe. Yes you need to learn how to rap safely and keep practiced, but rapping all the time off sport climbs is neither needed nor really desirable. It is not the worst thing you can do, but, frankly, it is more something gumbies or persons who have learned their skill set in an older or more traditional setting who haven't adapted to modern conditions do. (Sometimes it is safer for people to stick with what they have used and perfected for a long time than try to switch over)

As far as rope wear, it is not really worth considering compared to safety reasons unless it is a particularly abrasive situation.
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
JoeGaribay wrote:Also, wouldn't continuous rappelling help rope life over being lowered, throughout time? Less rubbing on the rock, which tends to happen more often than not, even with a good anchor set up.
Probably would, but at the expense of adding a lot of risk to the person cleaning.

Everyone has their own line around budget & rope wear. [After] spending time with someone who's permanently disabled due to falling from an anchor, the money I'd save from folks rappelling is completely irrelevant now. I'd rather wear out a rope lowering someone than pressure them to rappel. If I'm the cleaner, sometimes I rap and sometimes I lower.
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86
M Sprague wrote: No Joe. Yes you need to learn how to rap safely and keep practiced, but rapping all the time off sport climbs is neither needed nor really desirable. It is not the worst thing you can do, but, frankly, it is more something gumbies or persons who have learned their skill set in an older or more traditional setting who haven't adapted to modern conditions do. (Sometimes it is safer for people to stick with what they have used and perfected for a long time than try to switch over) As far as rope wear, it is not really worth considering compared to safety reasons unless it is a particularly abrasive situation.
I don't know about the gumbies but thanks for the input. I know there is a time and place for everything and different ways for each. I certainly see the safety in being lowered. Maybe I have always felt better about controlling my own way around rather than relying on another. I'm an absorber and a listener. I'm just here to soak in all the information I can. Wether it be good or bad there's always room for learning what to do and what not to do.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
JoeGaribay wrote: I don't know about the gumbies but thanks for the input. I know there is a time and place for everything and different ways for each. I certainly see the safety in being lowered. Maybe I have always felt better about controlling my own way around rather than relying on another. I'm an absorber and a listener. I'm just here to soak in all the information I can. Wether it be good or bad there's always room for learning what to do and what not to do.
Yeah, lol "gumbies" is a little inflammatory, but there is some truth to it. No offence meant. The overriding point is to be safe, so maybe annoying others who are waiting for you to be done a little or being overly concerned about rope wear are less important, so do what is safest for you in the context.

The fact is that while climbing (unless soloing) we do rely on our partners, so take it seriously, pick you partner wisely, communicate well and check each other.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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