Confronting litterers at Rumney

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: But you're saying that of those %1-KH-said-so-statistic, they are there for climbers to use as they please... "Otherwise they would have made an anchor with closed system chains/loops, or just have the plain bolts there." -- False.

In MOST (not all, and the underlying reason for even mentioning this was that there isn't a hard/fast rule regarding this everywhere) situations where there is replaceable gear it was put there for the purpose of being replaced with greater ease later. It doesn't mean that's why it's there in every case, which is also why I noted that you should know the local ethic regarding them before using biner/quick close anchors. You can wail on this all you want, the reality is that there are places that practice what I described, they're just not someplace you've climbed (and certainly very limited in the northeast as I also previously explained).

Once again (third time now) I mentioned what I did because one or more member posted that there was a absolute rule in place regarding such anchors, and that is absolutely false. My involvement since then has been to beat back the haters (of me) who don't read what I type, or whose ability to read at the necessary level is compromised either by lack of ability or what I'm seeing as blatant hatred for another member.

I've done NOTHING to anyone to deserve such treatment as I've been receiving. I will continue to defend myself, but frankly I'm about to stop being nice about it. Call it self defense.
______

Roddack - PM'ing you in case one or more of my experiences turns out to be bad beta.

Kevin, I would like to know which areas you have been to where top roping through the anchors is an acceptable practice.

Not sure if it is really "accepted" but some of the places I've been in CA with Mussy hooks on chains for anchors, like Bowman Lake and Table Mountain, come to mind as places I see people TR through the hooks with some regularity. I still use my own draws until the last person lowers off.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: In MOST (not all, and the underlying reason for even mentioning this was that there isn't a hard/fast rule regarding this everywhere) situations where there is replaceable gear it was put there for the purpose of being replaced with greater ease later. It doesn't mean that's why it's there in every case, which is also why I noted that you should know the local ethic regarding them before using biner/quick close anchors. You can wail on this all you want, the reality is that there are places that practice what I described, they're just not someplace you've climbed (and certainly very limited in the northeast as I also previously explained). Once again (third time now) I mentioned what I did because one or more member posted that there was a absolute rule in place regarding such anchors, and that is absolutely false. My involvement since then has been to beat back the haters (of me) who don't read what I type, or whose ability to read at the necessary level is compromised either by lack of ability or what I'm seeing as blatant hatred for another member. I've done NOTHING to anyone to deserve such treatment as I've been receiving. I will continue to defend myself, but frankly I'm about to stop being nice about it. Call it self defense. ______ Roddack - PM'ing you in case one or more of my experiences turns out to be bad beta.

Well that escalated quickly...

1) "In MOST (not all, and the underlying reason for even mentioning this was that there isn't a hard/fast rule regarding this everywhere) situations where there is replaceable gear it was put there for the purpose of being replaced with greater ease later."

I just disagree with this completely. It means you personally know what every person who has ever left 'replaceable gear' at an anchor is thinking. Glad you're so omnipotent. In the end, it doesn't matter. Leave the gear that's there, use it for rapping or lowering, and TR through your own.

2) "Know the local ethic."

Or don't. KISS and just TR through your own shit. I've never been to or even heard of a crag where the 'local ethic' is opposed to this.

3) "they're just not someplace you've climbed"

So now you omnipotently know where and what I've climbed? Unless you mean you as in "you all", in which case I won't get so (too) offended but I, like others, am still curious where these places are.

4) "I mentioned what I did because one or more member posted that there was a absolute rule in place regarding such anchors, and that is absolutely false."

I'll half way give you this one. Yes and no. This is climbing, not football. There is no Rule Book. No one will give you a timeout for being a d-bag or doing something the majority would call improper ethics. However, isn't it just easier to avoid any possibility of being 'that guy' and just use your own gear?

Why are you even arguing this?!

From the ASCA archives, October 2001. Note the bolded passage:

"CRAG and ASCA replace anchors in the Owens River Gorge

Thanks to CRAG and the ASCA, climbers will find 20 new anchors at the Great Wall of China and Negress/Warm Up Wall at Owens River Gorge. Instead of the traditional cold shuts, usually with a backup Fixe sport clip, there are now "Mussy" hooks, which you've seen if you've done some of the newer routes like Dr. Evil. These are hugely thick tow hooks, attached to normal hangers with a quick-link; ultimate strength rating of 8,000 lbs (the quick-links: 10,500 lbs). The Mussy hooks have a gate, unlike most cold shuts. A 3rd bolt with a chain plus carabiner is also present on some of the routes. Yeah, some jerk may pilfer the biner, but by the time the hooks start wearing thin, you can put another one on as a backup. Even on the anchors with two hooks, if you don't like the look of a worn hook, just slide it up on the quick-link and add a leaver biner.

The Mussy hooks will vastly improve the safety margins of the anchors while preserving the tradition of super-convenient lower-off anchors. Cold shuts, while time proven, are also somewhat dicey. Also, there are no conventional hangers to clip with cold shuts if you don't like the look of the hook, while Mussy hooks are attached to normal hangers. This also means that they can be used as lower-off points for the first pitch of multi-pitch routes, since you can clip into the hangers to belay.

In addition, future replacement is much easier. Instead of having to unscrew the main bolt at the anchor every time you swap out a cold shut (and find a rusty mess inside), the Mussy hooks are easily swapped by unscrewing the quick link. The new bolts we are using are super bomber 1/2" stainless steel Rawl 5-pieces with big Fixe hangers.

While these new hooks seem insanely thick, and while the concept of them wearing to nothing appears infinitely far off, PLEASE use quickdraws when top-roping, and a rope bag to keep your rope free of metal-carving dust. You can clip the main bolt, the link, or the hook itself, just as long as you make sure the last person can safely transfer over to the fixed anchor.

We hope to switch more and more anchors in the Gorge to the new system over the coming months (and years)."

And even Mussy hooks can get trashed by excessive TRing:

Photo credit: Tony Puppo
From:
supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

Marc, although I didn't send you the message, I actually mentioned Owen's at the end as one of the places I've been that frown on using their anchors for follows/TR'ing. Actually, most do (it can be assumed) unless told/learned otherwise. Which brings me to...

CLaG, we're both technically arguing over this. If you go back through my replies, your contentions are answered in some manner. On a whole we actually agree on best practice, we just disagree on the details/wording being used in this particular thread. It's probably because of these disagreements being, well, so petty that I have no choice but to conclude they're somehow otherwise motivated. Your replies in the other thread were not without snark. [yes, I realize my replies could be construed as 'petty' as well even though such things are important to me]

You know, the saying "it takes two"?

So yes, in my personal practice I tend to nearly always (like 99.9999% of the time) build an anchor using my own gear. But I would never say this is the only way, everywhere. I certainly wouldn't call someone out on pointing this out either, as Nick (and a few others) did with me. If to clarify as has eventually been done, fine. But definitives were used. I would never say all republicans are dumb, for example. I hate definitive statements! Life is more robust than yes/no, black/white.

Powhound, there's another thread in this section that would explain the recent frustrations and my rant/vent.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Marc, although I didn't send you the message, I actually mentioned Owen's at the end as one of the places I've been that frown on using their anchors for follows/TR'ing. Actually, most do (it can be assumed) unless told/learned otherwise. Which brings me to... CLaG, we're both technically arguing over this. If you go back through my replies, your contentions are answered in some manner. On a whole we actually agree on best practice, we just disagree on the details/wording being used in this particular thread. It's probably because of these disagreements being, well, so petty that I have no choice but to conclude they're somehow otherwise motivated. Your replies in the other thread were not without snark. You know, the saying "it takes two"? So yes, in my personal practice I tend to nearly always (like 99.9999% of the time) build an anchor using my own gear. But I would never say this is the only way, everywhere. I certainly wouldn't call someone out on pointing this out either, as Nick did with me. If to clarify as has eventually been done, fine. But definitives were used. I would never say all republicans are dumb, for example. I hate definitive statements! Life is more robust than yes/no, black/white. Powhound, there's another thread in this section that would explain the recent frustrations and my rant/vent.

As I see it, I'm standing by my personal ethics, not arguing. Shall I say it again?
Just TR through your own gear! It's really quite simple.

You're making assumptions and I'm just calling it as I see it. Refer to my last post.

And yet: What areas have you been to where it is acceptable to TR through fixed gear?

_____

Won't you be glad when I'm over this stomach bug and not lying around my house entertaining myself on MP all day?

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Roddack - PM'ing you in case one or more of my experiences turns out to be bad beta.

CLaG, if you had ever been pleasant with me I would gladly send you a copy of that PM. You, Max, Bill, and Nick are on my shit list indefinitely, expect no cooperation. You've earned the vacation from me (if you so choose, but keep poking and I'll keep poking back - deal?). ;)

The list isn't definitive and can't be scrutinized. It's obviously very incomplete since I haven't climbed every area on the planet. I would only conclude there's more I'm not aware of. I know nothing would please you more than to shit on it and/or me.

Caesar...a picture is worth a thousand words. Posting her photo along with you post would be much more effective then chastising her to not leave her trash again.

Just to add to the OP, I just got this photo from a friend. Apparently some kids colored all over the rocks with chalk while their parents climbed at Waimea.

Chalk grafftti

Kevin Heckeler wrote: CLaG, if you had ever been pleasant with me I would gladly send you a copy of that PM. You, Max, Bill, and Nick are on my shit list indefinitely, expect no cooperation. You've earned the vacation from me (if you so choose, but keep poking and I'll keep poking back - deal?). ;) The list isn't definitive and can't be scrutinized. It's obviously very incomplete since I haven't climbed every area on the planet. I would only conclude there's more I'm not aware of. I know nothing would please you more than to shit on it and/or me.

Nick and I have gone at it quite a few times over the Cassin XDreams. We still reply to each other's posts and speak to each other. We may not agree on some stuff but do know we're all here to talk shit and try and be funny. Oh and maybe write something constructive.

When you're wrong you're wrong.. Move on. Fighting over nothing proved itself a bad decision. That doesn't mean I wouldn't talk to Dan, J, M, or salad ever again.

Finally cheer up! The market's up. Greece and China haven't ruined the world.. Yet. So laugh all of this off and come draw with the rest of the children.

Bill Kirby wrote: Nick and I have gone at it quite a few times over the Cassin XDreams. We still reply to each other's posts and speak to each other. We may not agree on some stuff but do know we're all here to talk shit and try and be funny. Oh and maybe write something constructive. When you're wrong you're wrong.. Move on. Fighting over nothing proved itself a bad decision. That doesn't mean I wouldn't talk to Dan, J, M, or salad ever again. Finally cheer up! The market's up. Greece and China haven't ruined the world.. Yet. So laugh all of this off and come draw with the rest of the children.

Bill, your post puts you on the path to redemption. Praise be. :-)

It's kinda of coincidental this this just showed up today:

semi-rad.com/2015/07/how-to…

I've been told I'm a very nice person. But I'm also extremely crass and call bullshit when I see it. I just happen to see it. I'm (not) sorry you can't tolerate it.

"But keep poking and I'll keep poking back - deal?"

Ew. No Thanks.

powhound84 wrote: Why not post the info publicly? If you are trying to defend your comments up to this point, you aren't doing a very good job by picking and choosing who to educate on the areas you use as your examples. Again, I don't claim to know what is acceptable at every local crag so I'm not saying you are wrong but it would be interesting to see what some of the locals of those areas think about your views on the acceptable use of the bolted anchors. I think getting the opinion of others who climb those areas (or even better, route setters from those areas) would be the best way to get to the bottom of the local ethics.

It will be once a couple pairs of eyes verify. Want the list? I figure I was being fact checked, and that is prudent.

• edit - sent, maybe you will know one of the spots*
• roddack - sent it again with a note*

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:It's kinda of coincidental this this just showed up today: semi-rad.com/2015/07/how-to…

Good article.

ward smith wrote:Just to add to the OP, I just got this photo from a friend. Apparently some kids colored all over the rocks with chalk while their parents climbed at Waimea. Do people really not know that this is WRONG?

Now it looks like the sidewalk outside of their apartment. No more home sickness!

ward smith wrote:Just to add to the OP, I just got this photo from a friend. Apparently some kids colored all over the rocks with chalk while their parents climbed at Waimea. Do people really not know that this is WRONG?

I saw this that same day. Just to play devil's advocate, what if all that chalk was white?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Roddack - PM'ing you in case one or more of my experiences turns out to be bad beta.

Kevin, I had the wrong pm email and didn't receive the pm, please send again. Thanks

caesar.salad wrote: I saw this that same day. Just to play devil's advocate, what if all that chalk was white?

White chalk would still be a mess...

I have a three year old and we go to the crags all the time. She loves chalk but we leave that at home.
Ella bouldering with Daddy at Farley last winter