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Alpine ropes

Original Post
Brian E · · Western North Carolina · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 348

Hi Everybody,
I'm going to be doing some alpine climbing, and I would like to purchase two ropes that can be used as Half ropes or Twin ropes (I frequently confuse these two, so just to define them; half ropes are clipped independently of each other, while in the case of twin ropes, you clip both ropes to the same 'biner).

I have used half ropes several times, and find them to be fairly cumbersome, but the advantage of having two ropes in the alpine is just too substantial, so I thought that using a system that allows for the advantages of all three systems would be fantastic. I plan on primarily using the ropes in "Twin Mode", but would have options if needed.

First off, does this sound reasonable? While I know many MPers out there like to put in plugs for half ropes, I would like to reiterate that I have experience with them, and am not ready to fully make the switch to that system at this point.

Second off, does anyone have any brand recommendations? How about rope thickness? I was thinking 8.9mm?

My last question is a bit technical. I researched some previous forum post related to the topic, and it appears that many believe that clipping two non twin ropes into the same biner would actually create more force on the piece. I would think that it would actually create less because your weight is being distributed between two ropes as opposed to one. Anyone care to elaborate?

Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

Most ropes are rated as half's and twins when there that small now-a-days. Depending on the rope, clipping one or two will cause a greater force. The point of rating as both half & twin is that the difference in this force is small enough that you can use them as either. 8.9 is a bit on the big side. There are single ropes that size. I would absolutely consider the mammut serenity 8.7's. Probably one of the most versitle ropes on the market, seeing as there also rated as a single.

Superclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 1,310

Here r my thoughts...

For trips I often take my beal joker 9.1 and one of my pmi verglas 8.1 (I think it's 8.1). The joker can be used single, half, or twin. The pmi can be used half or twin. This is quite versatile. Personally, I prefer one rope when possible, but on meandering routes halfs r pretty handy.

I've fallen on the joker plenty of times. Once on 2 pmi's in twin mode. I can tell u from experience that you can expect huge rope stretch in a fall on skinny ropes. It's soft, but beware if there r ledges and shit to hit.

Also, if used mostly in twin mode as u mentioned u may lose out on the advantage u get from reduced rope drag on meandering routes.

The pmi's r a little disappointing in the durability department. But they handle well after a few uses. The joker has proven to be more durable than I expected and handles really really well. Very happy with the joker.

Regarding your question about the force seen by the piece. I'm not an expert in this department, but I SPECULATE that you might get less rope stretch from two ropes thru a piece than u would get from one rope thru a piece. Possibly resulting in a higher impact if u fall in twin mode vs half mode. But again, I'm speculating and I don't know for sure. The one time I fell on two ropes in twin mode it was on steep slabby terain with lots of rope out, it was quite soft.

Brian E · · Western North Carolina · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 348

Thanks for the reply guys. I'll check out the joker and serenity

Xam · · Boulder, Co · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 76
Be Esperanza wrote: My last question is a bit technical. I researched some previous forum post related to the topic, and it appears that many believe that clipping two non twin ropes into the same biner would actually create more force on the piece. I would think that it would actually create less because your weight is being distributed between two ropes as opposed to one. Anyone care to elaborate?
You will always get more force on the top piece with two ropes then one rope, assuming it is the same rope. So in the example of a twin/half rated rope, where in the same situation you were to fall on the rope in twin mode (both through the top piece) or half mode (one through the top piece), you would always generate more force on the top piece in twin mode.

It is possible to find a half or single that will have less impact force than any given twin system. It is also possible to have a twin system with less impact force than any given half or single system. It is unclear what happens when you mix and match different ropes as twins, but the higher impact force rope will likely dominate.
Emmett Lyman · · Stoneham, MA (Boston burbs) · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 480

I always thought twin ropes had more durable sheaths than halves so they could run through the same gear without abrading. Yeah they move mostly together, but there's always going to be a bit of play and I thought halves were susceptible to sheath failure if clipped together as twins.

I dunno, probably nothing to this. Maybe just a story the old timers tell to scare kids?

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Emmett Lyman wrote:I always thought twin ropes had more durable sheaths than halves so they could run through the same gear without abrading. Yeah they move mostly together, but there's always going to be a bit of play and I thought halves were susceptible to sheath failure if clipped together as twins. I dunno, probably nothing to this. Maybe just a story the old timers tell to scare kids?
Twins are suppose to have lower impact so they stretch a lot. Halves should a higher impact since they're used separate. I think there's a bunch of rope manufactories that have compromised both ends of the impact spec to be rated as both, twins and halves.
Emmett Lyman · · Stoneham, MA (Boston burbs) · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 480

Yeah, no doubt about it Bill. Ever hear anything like that about the sheaths, though?

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Emmett Lyman wrote:Yeah, no doubt about it Bill. Ever hear anything like that about the sheaths, though?
The only time I ever heard about a thicker sheath being designed into a rope was Bluewater's skinny ropes. When Bluewater designed the Wave, 9.3mm and the Icon, 9.1mm they made the sheath thicker. They claim the thicker sheath gives the ropes a longer life. I own a Bluewater Icon and it looks brand new. So I could see someone designing twins like that for longevity.
Brian E · · Western North Carolina · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 348

Thanks again for the replies guys. Bill, is there a rope that you feel is designed as an adequate compromise for the uses I described? To put it another way, are you aware of a rope that will perform well primarily as a twin, but could also be used as a single line?

I guess I should provide some my biases. I generally climb on 9.8-10.2 single ropes. I like them thinker, because I take lots of whips. I started climbing at the Voo. Every time I tie into a skinny rope, I feel like I'm going to core shot it. I recently bought a 9.4 and destroyed it pretty quickly. My friends even told me it looked scary.

Sooooooo, the thought of climbing on a single 8.9 is traumatic, but if there were two of them... I could deal with that. Thanks again

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

So you are looking for an alpine rope that you can whip on all day long.
Get a skinny pair of doubles that can be used as twins. Leave the whipping for another climb.

Brian E · · Western North Carolina · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 348

No, I'm looking for an alpine rope that won't get a core shot if it runs over a blade of grass. I merely mentioned my affinity for falling as background information for why I don't really like skinny ropes.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

OK but are you really going to be whipping on the ropes and doing long alpine routes? If the pitch goes over jagged rock and you're splitting the ropes consider that a no fall zone. Generally you'll find that the harder pitches are straight forward and you'll be able to use the ropes as twins.

If you want a durable double/twin look at something in the 8.5 range. Once you move up to a skinny rope (9.0 range) that can handle single/double/twin, the sheath gets thin. This is so they can get the single falls to meet the standards.

I think of it as the right tool for the job. Is there a lot of wandering pitches? How hard are the pitches? Am I rappelling the route? How long is the approach?

In the end your best range choices are 8's for a lighter set or 8.5's for a more durable set. This still gives you a lot of flexibility compared to get a super light pair of dedicated twins in the 7 range.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

There are no twins or doubles presently made that when combined are lighter than the lightest single skinny. If you need to rap full strand get twins or doubles otherwise get a single. If sheath strength is important to you, a moderately sized single will be significantly lighter than the equivalently durable twin.

There are some caveats to this but this should cover most applications.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Be Esperanza wrote:To put it another way, are you aware of a rope that will perform well primarily as a twin, but could also be used as a single line?
When you said you want to take advantage of "all three systems" in your OP, I thought you may be talking about this. So essentially you want a twin rope that can be used as a single in a pinch. There are only a few ropes on the market that's actually certified for both twin and single use, and they are usually also certified as doubles as well (makes sense since they're already certified as twin and single). Beal Joker (9.1mm), Beal Opera (8.5mm), Mammut Finesse (9.3mm), and maybe others.

Putting the whole single, double, and twin certification aside, personally I've used my 8.5mm doubles (certified only as doubles) as twins when I'm not on a wandering route. The concern of increased impact force in this case is very real, but I only do this when I feel the risk is acceptable. I've also used just one of my doubles as a single when I'm shaving weight for a long approach and climbing something easy, again only when I feel the risk is acceptable.

I would be very sketched about using one twin rope (certified only as twins) as a single. Ropes that are twin certified only tend to be very thin (usually less than 8.0mm), I'd be very scared to fall on something that skinny.

So either get one of them triple certified rope to be totally kosher, or get the thinest twin/double dual certified rope you're comfortable falling on. Don't get twin-only rope for what you're thinking, they are just too skinny, especially when you can get twin/double dual certified rope that's just slightly heavier.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

lets start at the top

- half ropes do NOT generally have lower impact forces than single ropes ... read the tests from sterling on will gadd blog

willgadd.com/single-and-hal…

- half ropes MAY have more stretch on a single strand ... they are allows a maximum of 12% 80 KG vs 10% for singles

- half ropes can reduce the impact force through less drag and greater slip

- using half ropes as twins leads to around a 30-50% increase in the 55kg half rope impact force rating to the 80 kg twin rating ... however the impact force increase is roughly 20-30% if all rating weights are kept consistent (for example single 80kg rating to twin 80 kg rating on tri-rated ropes)

- there is nothing that says the sheath on twins need to be more "durable" ... the sheath percentages have been fairly consistent around ... it really depends on the design objectives of the rope

- most modern half ropes can be used as twins ... even if they dont explicitly say so ... you can do the rough math to calculate the twin impact force ... in fact if you could deal with the diameter you could use soft catching singles such as beal (7.2 KN) as twins with a lower/same impact force as many twin rated halves

the bottom line is if you want "durable" half ropes get something ~8.5mm like the mammut genesis

for something lighter, get something around 8mm like the mammut phoenix

if yr going to whip all the time ... bring up a soft catching single and a tag line ... itll cost you less when you need to replace yr rope

personally i like mammut for thinner ropes, they seem to be fairly durable

its all a set of compromises ... there aint no free sushi

;)

Kyro · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 5

For alpine I use my sterling 7.8 awesome ropes! Light weight, great handling, and light

Brian E · · Western North Carolina · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 348

Thanks for all of the responses and the "food for thought". I'll check out some of these brands and blogs.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Be Esperanza wrote:Thanks again for the replies guys. Bill, is there a rope that you feel is designed as an adequate compromise for the uses I described? To put it another way, are you aware of a rope that will perform well primarily as a twin, but could also be used as a single line? I guess I should provide some my biases. I generally climb on 9.8-10.2 single ropes. I like them thinker, because I take lots of whips. I started climbing at the Voo. Every time I tie into a skinny rope, I feel like I'm going to core shot it. I recently bought a 9.4 and destroyed it pretty quickly. My friends even told me it looked scary. Sooooooo, the thought of climbing on a single 8.9 is traumatic, but if there were two of them... I could deal with that. Thanks again
I would have to agree with BB.. Mammut Genesis 8.5s for doubles or twins and that Icon I was telling you about and a Phoenix 8.0 for the tag line. If I'm walking far up the mountain I like to use something more useful for a tag line. Extra weight but an extra rope too in case of trouble.
Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Bill Kirby wrote: I would have to agree with BB.. Mammut Genesis 8.5s for doubles or twins and that Icon I was telling you about and a Phoenix 8.0 for the tag line. If I'm walking far up the mountain I like to use something more useful for a tag line. Extra weight but an extra rope too in case of trouble.
the mammut genesis (had 50ms too kinda regret selling them), but have you ever used them as twins?
Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

This brings up the subject of length. When I started climbing 45 m was sort of standard and 50 m was the "long rope". Now its 60 and 70 meters and 80s if you want. For routes where we use a single rope and want a longer "half way" I understand but long twin or doubles bring with them the issue of weighing more as well as needing more gear to protect a full rope pitch - which weighs more (as do the longer ropes). It's a kind of double edge sword when considering what all has to be carried in the Alpine realm anyway.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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