Confronting litterers at Rumney

Kevin Heckeler wrote: "As intended" though seems to vary from crag to crag. [my post was specifically discussing anchors with biners or quick close style bolts]

Quickclips are so when you are going to lower you just throw the rope in and don't have to untie or other do another more complicated procedure.

And here the thread takes another turn for the worse.

M Sprague wrote: Quickclips are so when you are going to lower you just throw the rope in and don't have to untie or other do another more complicated procedure.

Understand that in some places they're acceptably used for belaying the follow/TR'ing on as well. I've had been to those places. In person. Talked with/climbed with the locals. ETC. Hence my clarification that this isn't a hard/fast (set-in-stone) rule. That was the point (I made clear that climbers need to know local ethics/use discretion in deciding how to anchor).

Granted, in most cases it makes sense to just add your own gear as you should be carrying up the wall anyway, as I almost always practice myself.

The places I see this practiced most is at sport crags. We have a near absence of sport here in the East, so the use-your-own ethic is typically uniform across all Eastern areas. Frankly, I think the ethic in those sport areas is that people will follow/TR on them anyway so they just stopped caring and expect to replace gear more often. I recall some of the West sport areas have funds for bolt replacement, similar to what I think they do at Rumney.

If you haven't been to Rumney, at the parking lots there are signs telling people not to top rope through fixed gear, including quick-clips. In fact, they have an old, rope-worn quick clip hanging next to the sign to demonstrate the effects of doing so.

Greg Petliski wrote: Yes, but as I have become an adult, my rage has more or less disappeared. Thats what usually happens as we age.

Good for you. Now if you could tell me you will get off your cell and stay outta the passing lane or look in your rear view mirror more than once every five minutes when you're in the passing lane you'll be my inspiration for peace forever..

caesar.salad wrote:If you haven't been to Rumney, at the parking lots there are signs telling people not to top rope through fixed gear, including quick-clips. In fact, they have an old, rope-worn quick clip hanging next to the sign to demonstrate the effects of doing so.

We have it good here in the East, people generally listen and respect the rules of the area. Out West, things are a bit more "free for all" (at least that's my Easterner's perception).

Bill Kirby wrote: Good for you. Now if you could tell me you will get off your cell and stay outta the passing lane or look in your rear view mirror more than once every five minutes when you're in the passing lane you'll be my inspiration for peace forever..

There are only two kinds of drivers in the world. The asshole in front of you and the maniac behind you.

Merlin wrote: There are only two kinds of drivers in the world. The asshole in front of you and the maniac behind you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPCE2tTLZQ

Well while we're at it,.. Birds used to fly into my windows and die all the time so I stopped cleaning them bc the pagan family in the flat below me was eating them and the smell of stewed finch gives my ferret the runs. Now that they're dirty, my view of the Friday night street transient death matches over behind the Circle-K is obscured. Normally this wouldn't be an issue but I have money on One-eyed Wookie Pete this weekend and going over there simply isn't an option bc of the hookers I owe money to (apparently they charge. who knew??).

Suggestions?

Problem solved. Tyvm

Kevin, Not shure why I am going with a serious post but here it is. Mark puts up a ton of new routs. Pretty shure he knows the drill on what quick clips are for. Myself I spend a bare minimum of $300.00 a year on bolts and anchors. 2012 was a banner year and cost me about a grand in bolts, hangers, epoxy, drill bits etc. etc. I don't believe in placeing quick clips at top stations as I feel they promote stupidity. I do however damn well know what they are intended for.
This is my prefered set up for a belay or rap station. many of my climbs are multi pitch and this setup allows for lots of clip in points as well as working nicely for a sport top anchor. Also easily replaceable when the ends of the bottom links wear.

There are wag bag kiosks at Rumney. Not sure why people don't use them. I carry my own everywhere.

Thanks Nick and Mark for all your route contributions - outta your own pockets.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:. This is my prefered set up for a belay or rap station. many of my climbs are multi pitch and this setup allows for lots of clip in points as well as working nicely for a sport top anchor. Also easily replaceable when the ends of the bottom links wear.

Yes, yes, and yes. This is my favorite anchor as well. And as an added bonus that you didn't mention, this setup doesn't twist the bejebus out of your rope when you pull like those over priced, non-replaceable Fixe rap ring setups...god damn do I hate those things.

J. Albers wrote: Yes, yes, and yes. This is my favorite anchor as well. And as an added bonus that you didn't mention, this setup doesn't twist the bejebus out of your rope when you pull like those over priced, non-replaceable Fixe rap ring setups...god damn do I hate those things.

They're mine as well. I wasn't referring to those (that's a 'closed' system as I described above, not biners or quick close). Nice photo anyway.

Is it possible people aren't READING posts here again, or is there a greater comprehension issue at play here?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Understand that in some places they're acceptably used for belaying the follow/TR'ing on as well. I've had been to those places. In person. Talked with/climbed with the locals. ETC. Hence my clarification that this isn't a hard/fast (set-in-stone) rule. That was the point (I made clear that climbers need to know local ethics/use discretion in deciding how to anchor). Granted, in most cases it makes sense to just add your own gear as you should be carrying up the wall anyway, as I almost always practice myself.

Maybe I just need to quote myself over and over?

Another benign point/observation on my part being picked apart?

The route developer (or maintainer) is not always intending to leave "a hint that [biners/replaceable gear is] there to be used". Plenty of people develop routes and don't put thought into the outcome. That person does it to climb new routes--not necessarily at Rumney, although maybe. This comes down to the area's and personal ethic--take that discussion elsewhere.

Therefore, biners may remain at the anchor because:

1) The developer/maintainer didn't put in the proper number of quick links resulting in a mega-tangled mess of a rope when lowering or rapping

2) The quick links were bad/worn and someone removed them and left biners to avoid said tangled rope ball. (Mmmmm... tangled balls)

3) The developer/maintainer didn't have any quick links and left what most climbers have readily available on their harness. You guessed it, Carabiners!

Not all route developers have an unlimited budget. As Nick mentioned, putting up and maintaining routes costs $$$ and to do it right, it also requires consideration. Not everyone has common sense or the proper funds to go to the hardware store and buy $10-12 of quick links for every route they put up. But what do most climbers have a surplus of? Bail biners!

The easy answer:

Just use your own shit! Not sometimes, not most of the time. Every time. No debating necessary.

I mean really, if you just spent all that energy to climb all the way up there, you can't tell me you're too lazy to clip a couple quickdraws for your party to TR from.

Most anchors are NOT biners or quick close. It's an issue for maybe 1% of them all?

How hard is it to slap 2 quick draws into the anchor bolts and top rope off that? I don't see how this is even a discussion. I have *never* asked around on what the ethics are for toproping off the anchor, because it's easier for me to just put in my own draws than to go around giving a survey to two dozen climbers.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Most anchors are NOT biners or quick close. It's an issue for maybe 1% of them all?

Totally depends on the area, Just thinking about climbing yesterday, and 5 of the 6 routes I climbed had steel biners or quick clips (cold shuts or mussey hooks) at the anchors.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Building permanent anchors and leaving biners, or even quick close style anchors (which I sometimes, but not always, use my own gear) suggests that this is a top rope area or sport climb, and they're there for easy replacement later and/or climber convenience. [Otherwise they would have made an anchor with closed system chains/loops, or just have the plain bolts there.] In these situations it's climber's discretion, either you know the area and know the intent of the permanent gear left at the anchor, ask a nearby climber, or just build something with your own. As I explained, leaving this type of gear as the anchor is a hint that it's there to be used.

But you're saying that of those %1-KH-said-so-statistic, they are there for climbers to use as they please...

"Otherwise they would have made an anchor with closed system chains/loops, or just have the plain bolts there." -- False. Read back to my previous post. Developers are not always thinking about more than just their route.

...Just looking for explicit clarification because I don't (think anyone) understands your logic.

Also, I really enjoy poking bears with sticks.