Heavy climber, light belayer

rgold wrote:Getting pulled into the first bolt is a prescription for belayer hand injury and also possibly a dropped leader. Studies by the CAI reveal that there is almost no load reduction advantage in being lifted more than about a meter, so the best solution is probably a ground anchor with perhaps four feet of slack in it to allow for some lifting. The the ground anchor strand should run from the harness connection over the same hip as the brake hand so that the belayer isn't spun around and remains in a natural position while being lifted.

its not about load reduction on sport climbing

its about preventing the swing and getting spiked

in that case a metre may not be enough to prevent it on a big overhung/traversing fall

;)

bearbreeder wrote: its not about load reduction on sport climbing its about preventing the swing and getting spiked in that case a metre may not be enough to prevent it on a big overhung/traversing fall ;)

^^this

and I assume the comment about the first clip "being for the belayer/anchor..." is meant in the context of a multi-pitch anchor and preventing a fall back onto the anchor and not in the context of belaying a sport climb from the ground.

Ground anchors aren't always a bad idea. All multi-pitch belays essentially operate that way.

A couple suggestions for giving a more 'dynamic' while in to a ground anchor.

1. Allow some slack in the ground anchor. This allows some mobility for the belayer to soften the catch.

2. Use the rope or something not static to anchor to the ground.

3. (If absolutely necessary) like multi-pitch climbs with marginal belays or protection that you don't want to stress too much. Allow a litle rope slip with the ATC to soften the catch.

I'm 195 lbs and my GF is somewhere btw 110 and 130 (I'm not allowed to ask). When we sport climb and I'm likely to whip I like to have her wear a b'pack or tie into the ground somehow. We've found that she usually comes off the ground less when belaying with an ATC as opposed to a Gri Gri (likely due to a small amount of unintentional rope slip, which softens the jerk* on her harness)

CSPROUL wrote:

"I assume the comment about the first clip "being for the belayer/anchor..." is meant in the context of a multi-pitch anchor and preventing a fall back onto the anchor and not in the context of belaying a sport climb from the ground."

No, reread the OP.

"We were sport climbing in the gym and he was pulling out slack when he slipped. He'd skipped the first clip to prevent me from slamming into the wall if he fell..."

"There's your problem right there. If he didn't skip that first clip, you would have stopped getting pulled up higher once you reached it. The first clip is as much for the belayer/anchor as it is for the leader."

The first bolt is for the leader. Proper positioning of the belayer, appropriate use of ground anchors, and solid belay technique are the right tools for keeping the lid on the belay. Cheers!

Amanda Ramsay wrote:I understand how anchoring myself to the ground would be helpful when belaying someone almost twice as heavy (me being 100 lbs), but what would be the best technique when belaying from fixed anchors on a multi-pitch climb? I recently climbed a tower with someone who had 80 lbs on me and it was a bit scary, wondering what would happen if he whipped. We discussed anchoring me into the crack to my side or below me if possible. Any thoughts on this?

Well, you do have to be anchored, and the anchor has to be able to withstand an upward load. The simplest set-up for this occurs when the pieces can be placed in a horizontal crack, but if only vertical cracks are available, then there has to be at least one solid piece oriented for an upward pull. Do not count on cams in a vertical crack that are oriented for downward pulls to rotate 180 degrees and still work.

If rigging just with the rope, it is easy to create an anchor that will resist in both up and down loads. When belaying, clip your device to the loop of rope that forms your climbing rope tie-in rather than clipping to the harness loop. In this way, loads are transmitted directly to the belay anchor rather than imposing twisting and shearing loads on the harness.

If you are using a tube-style device, it is appropriate to worry about whether you can catch a severe fall of someone far heavier. After all, your grip strength, which may be exceptional for people of your size and weight, is still somewhat correlated with your weight, and so may be less than is needed with a plate and a much heavier person. I'd play it safe by using two carabiners for the tube, which will increase friction and only decrease handling ease a little bit, and absolutely always wear gloves. (Gloves are a bit of a tradeoff, because they decrease your grip strength a little, but the protection from rope burns and so the ability to hang on no matter what is more important.)

Tiffanie Tran wrote:I weigh 95 pounds, opposing my boyfriend who weighs 185. Surprisingly enough, this was never an issue for us until he slips while clipping into a draw. Our gym provides a 50 pound weight bag you can clip into. As for climbing at the crag, we bought a fitness weight bag you can fill with sand. We use whatever we can find to add weight, which typically ends up being rocks. I hope this helps. Cheers!

I use this same concept some times with my heavier partners. I often fill one of our backpacks with some rocks and then clip it to my belay loop. Its worked pretty well in the past. Still allows for a "soft catch" without being tied to the ground

Ana Tine wrote:I've noticed a lot of the guys here seem concerned about the well-being of their light belayer, and not themselves. Why?

Perhaps because a compromised belayer is a safety issue for the climber?

Imagine getting yanked up to where your head or brake hand slams into the rock. Then it becomes an issue for the climber...

Ana Tine wrote:I've noticed a lot of the guys here seem concerned about the well-being of their light belayer, and not themselves. Why? ...

I as a big guy am used to rope stretch and soft catches contrast that with most belayers are not used to catching a a 220 lbs leader. I am told it can be painful even under the best conditions.

S. Neoh wrote: Please politely inform those people who have taught you the wrong way to learn the right way to use a Gri Gri, especially before 'educating' others. This is a common mistake that has resulted in several bad accidents in recent years. This is definitely something to be aware of; I have seen it happen so many times indoors. To the OP, this might have happened to you without you realizing it at the time. Or, as you said, you were holding down the cam as he pulled up rope to clip, resulting in rope running thru the device unchecked before you let go of the cam.

In addition, be aware that grabbing the climber's side of the rope can also prevent the Grigri from locking, resulting in serious accidents.

mountainproject.com/v/anoth…

This seems to happen more often with light belayers who, anticipating being yanked into the air, grab the climbers rope to brace themselves.

Based on your description, this also could have been what happened.

There is no one-size-fits-every belay solution for every climb.

Me=130; Partner=210. We sport, trad, boulder, aid. We both lead. I got tired of his a$$ landing in my face when he whipped. Conversely, I don't like slamming into the wall when I whip.

If you really want to know what you are doing and not just blindly accept the word of the climber you admire most, then you need to experiment. Intelligently. And taking baby steps.

Start at the gym: what happens when your partner hangs at a bolt? Progress to a short fall at the bolt. A few inches above the bolt. And so forth. Have at least 25' of rope in your system for this, and/or get out the bouldering pads. Same thing outdoors.

Stuff to try: dynamic leash, static leash, immovable anchor, mobile anchor, no anchor, different leash attach points, how much slack in the belay, whether or not you jump, where you put your hands, body position, running downhill away from the fall...etc.

You will get different results depending on angle of the rock, friction in your system, amount of slack, type of pro used. Learn to set up the belay to meet the needs of your unique climbing situation. Set up experiments that you can control, rather than *hoping* you never have the accident that forces this knowledge upon you.

Happy exploring!

One of my usual partners outweighs me by 90 lbs. We have used most of the advice presented in this thread at one time or another - I belay from directly under the first bolt, manage slack on the short side (just enough to allow freedom of movement), and use ground anchors if the pull or fall would be dangerous. I encourage my partner to manage his own risk by not taking chances low on a route, and avoiding high clips. Another unmentioned solution that we have tried is to purposely create rope drag by running the rope through a low bolt or piece to the side of the route being climbed. Clipping the first bolt on a neighboring route and the second on the intended route is no more dangerous than skipping the first bolt altogether. The additional drag allows me to belay as I would for someone closer to my own weight, but because I can leave a bit more slack in the system, my partner doesn't feel the extra weight. When using this technique, make sure the rope does not run across the climber's path (no rope entanglement issues) and that the piece is set to withstand the direction of pull. Not perfect, but another option.

csproul wrote: Strange...I have never caused somebody to hit the first anchor like I said I think about six feet is the highest I ever lifted anybody. I also don't mind the weight disparity since I always get a soft catch. I guess it has been rare that I've hit the first bolt. True on the soft catch. If you're over 200 lbs you're probably getting one from me whether you want it or not!

I think you may be underestimating how far you pull up a ligther belayer. Six feet isnt very far and first bolts are usually at least 12 feet up.  I am much lighter than most of my climbing partners, and I have never ridden to the bolt but have gotten pulled up pretty far, especially when my climber has taken a large whip

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