4th of July Weekend Crowds

Jim, what is he talking about??

Kevin, I rarely chime in, but this time I have to, if only briefly.

There are plenty of crags in the Dacks that are stacked with climbs to choose from. They may not all be 4- Star classics, but they're there. The Web, Deadwater, Shelving, Barkeater, Poke-O (upper tiers included), Moss, and The Beer Walls, to name a few areas that have such menus.

Surviving as a climber in the Northeast is about being an optimist and an opportunist (ie climb what's available)--you work with what you're dealt. If you're not, and you decide to only wait for the crisp apples to appear all the time, you might as well be Waiting For Godot.

It's starting to sound like you need to pick up another hobby that's not so weather-dependent, no?

+1 to everyone except Kevin.

Three stars = classic? I guess I have to severely lower my climbing standards [and the guide rewrite theirs]. I believe in the guide 5 stars is the only quality grade assigned "classic", 3 stars = good. I haven't done a 3 star climb in the ADKs that I thought was a classic (or mistook for a classic).

Moss Cliff has no 5.8 climbs, and the 5.9s there (from reputation) are some of the hardest on the east coast. Spider's Web has one very stout 5.8 and eveything else is 5.10 except for the 5.9 corner climb (admittedly not terrible difficult). Again, one's climbing prowess has a lot to do with shaping the lens through which you see the climbing in your area. People like me run out of options quick. Hell, even Poke-O only has a couple quality moderates. QUALITY. The other areas have been discussed. We need to run through 1300 pages of guide book and pick every single area apart? That wasn't even (ever) the point. See my prior couple posts.

Regarding the freudian ego slippage...

Unfortunately I have physical ailments and a mediocre lead head. No training in the world can miraculously mend a body incompatible with climbing. The combination keeps me languishing in the moderates on the sharp end. With age this only gets worse. But I still love the activity and hope someday to be living somewhere the options are greater for a gumby like me. [originally the goal was to do alpine stuff out West, training for that sort of climbing here, but when my GF/primary partner broke their foot approaches became too painful to be realistic]

Do any of you realize 5.8 is not "easy". It seems perspective on what constitutes difficulty is getting blurred with the infusion of bouldering and gym rat infestation. How long ago was 5.10 deemed "impossible"? It's become more athletic feat than something to do outside/commune with nature. Sadly, it seems to be the prevailing wind.

There's no need to tell someone 5.8 aint enough, why not 5.13d? Why are YOU not leading 5.13d? Not training hard enough?

This has NOTHING to do with attitude, or even ability for that matter. My posts have been casual observations based on what's there, not wishfully thinking I'm living someplace else or on climbs that only exist in my delusional and artificially joyously empty head.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:In the ADKs there isn't always a plan B climb next door. Areas are spread out and/or have a limited number of moderate routes. [Quadrophenia being a prior example]

.

Keep digging yourself deeper with that one example..

I can't climb hard because I'm... Well I stand outside a bar and people show me their ID! Don't give me that " I can't find good routes because I don't have the body of a climber!" I told you already that I find plenty of good stuff.

sara pax wrote: A strong local climber in my parts likes to say something along the lines of "I've never been on a climb I didn't like" and he's been on a lot of climbs. A positive mental attitude (pma) can go a long way. So you hiked 10 miles to get on a classic and there's 12 parties cued up to climb the thing? Well climb the choss pile next to it and enjoy the pants off yourself! You're still getting out into nature with some good company and doing what you love to do. Life is too short not to cherish that.

I wonder if your employer cut your pay in half if you'd still have this rosy optimism, or you would be looking for a new job. Sorry sara, you sound like an idiot to a realist like me.

[I was just sent a 'warning shot' message from Luc (admin) about this post/idiot comment. If I can be told/suggested I have a negative mental attitude (nma) then I can certainly call out such hogwash if I feel it to be so.]

Bill Kirby wrote:Keep digging yourself deeper with that one example.. I can't climb hard because I'm... Well I stand outside a bar and people show me their ID! Don't give me that " I can't find good routes because I don't have the body of a climber!" I told you already that I find plenty of good stuff.

The discussion never had anything to do with finding routes, it had to do with best strategy for getting on good routes on a busy holiday weekend. Someone else introduced this (now) convoluted side topic.

I suggest everyone go back and reread this thread, and actually READ the words.

Oh well let me rephrase.. I can't find three quality routes in the same area during a crowded weekend cause my body blah blah blah...

Go back and read too. We're saying there's plenty of options with no crowds.

Bill Kirby wrote:We're saying there's plenty of options with no crowds.

And that is the underlying problem - that isn't a true (blanket) statement, especially not on holiday weekends.

When giving climbing specific advice on this site I try very hard to separate opinion from fact. The fact many of the popular areas and climbs get busy hasn't been disputed. Max even stated so two times in this thread. The gray area is whether that particular area (wherever it is) has other options. Generally crags close to the car are busiest. Again, common knowledge. So picking an area with a longer approach would be a better strategy, eliminating even having to deal with the possibility of having to settle for climbs you never intended to get on in the first place.

The flowery BS about "I love all climbs" is fine for those people, but the rest of us with standards and limited climbing days each year strive for more than getting on anything and doing that requires a touch more effort than chance.

The advice, in summation that I opposed, was "just go and you'll find something". That's just flat out bad advice, as there's a lot of variables to that equation.

Jim Lawyer wrote: Really???

I wasn't calling you out or putting you on the spot - as the keeper of the numbers I figure you would know exactly how many 5 star routes 5.8 and under exist in the park. At this point you can also confirm what quality grade is "classic", as some here seem to think 3 stars is where the numbering system ends.

Kevin, I'm confused since you seem to use the term "5-Star" and "classic" interchangeably.

Just because a route was given 5-stars doesn't mean it's a classic. Likewise, there are plenty of routes with highly recognizable names--Pete's Farewell, Tilman's Arete and Arachnid Traction-- which I personally would deem ADK Mega-Classics and only receive 4 stars in the guidebook.

Stars are the most subjective thing about climbing. I've climbed plenty of 1 or no star routes and had plenty of fun and enjoyed myself just fine. I've also cursed routes with 4-stars and vowed to never climb that pile of $h!t ever again. Just because one person loves a route doesn't mean the next guy (gal) will share their opinion.

I recognize your attempt at an objective discussion of "Will classic routes be open this weekend?" but between your parameters of roadside proximity and star ratings, you're just being unrealistic. And really, no one cares.

Maybe everyone should just get off the internet and go climbing instead?

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:Kevin, I'm confused since you seem to use the term "5-Star" and "classic" interchangeably. Just because a route was given 5-stars doesn't mean it's a classic. Likewise, there are plenty of routes with highly recognizable names--Pete's Farewell, Tilman's Arete and Arachnid Traction-- which I personally would deem ADK Mega-Classics and only receive 4 stars in the guidebook. Stars are the most subjective thing about climbing. I've climbed plenty of 1 or no star routes and had plenty of fun and enjoyed myself just fine. I've also cursed routes with 4-stars and vowed to never climb that pile of $h!t ever again. Just because one person loves a route doesn't mean the next guy (gal) will share their opinion. I recognize your attempt at an objective discussion of "Will classic routes be open this weekend?" but between your parameters of roadside proximity and star ratings, you're just being unrealistic. And really, no one cares. Maybe everyone should just get off the internet and go climbing instead?

I agree that there's a lot of good routes that are not 5 star, but members (not me initially) mentioned 'classics' as a defining quality desired by visiting climbers. Indeed they are, for a reason. They're fun and worth getting out of bed early for. Not all climbs are, however. That's simply having standards - recognizing a good climb from a not good one.

If you didn't like the car for sale at the dealer you wouldn't just buy it anyway, right? Then why settle for just any climb? Buying a car and getting to the crag are similar in that they both require time and gas money, and if you don't pick the right dealer/crag you have to leave and shop around, or buy whatever the dealer has to offer you(?).

I'm not even sure the last time I got on climb rated 5 stars in the guide. But that is what is considered 'classic' by guide standards. Just using the tools available as a baseline. It's a point of reference.

It appears at least a few members care. There's a lot of replies in this thread, and a few directed at me . Including one snarky (now two) replies from you.

Unfortunately this is a weekday, many in the world (myself included) have jobs and are stuck at a desk for another 3 days. Banter about climbing and whatever work is thrown our way is about all we have. Sorry if this isn't of interest to you. Maybe stop reading the thread?

Well Kevin since I'm still having fun with this, the thread started out with the OP asking if the crags will be extra crowded this past weekend given the holiday. I chimed in on post #3 and said it's pretty easy to get on great routes in the Adirondacks any weekend of the summer. Seems simple. Seems true since I'm not the only one who has come back and reported hitting four and five star routes right next to the road all weekend. Maybe you're the one who needs to go back and reread things.

If you're looking for ONLY 5-star routes, below 5.9, right next to the road, well... I can't help you. If you'd rather be a Negative-Nancy than try, well... I can't help you. If 3-star routes are beneath you, well... I can't help you. If you're one of the 95% of the people coming to the Adirondacks for the 10% of the routes everyone else came for, well... I can't help you. I've said my piece, stand by my opinion and beyond that, well... I can't help you.

We're the same age Kevin and I'm in the best shape of my life so don't give me any of that B.S. about how everything gets harder when you're older. I have a friend who is 70 years old and can fire off a laundry list of injuries from a broken neck to ingrown toenails and he's still out getting after it with a big smile. I have a lot of respect for that. I hate people who give up and make excuses. Attitude is everything and the first thing I look for in climbing partners.

Why am I not climbing .13d? Because .13d is really, really hard! I am not, however, nor will I ever be, the guy whining that I can't climb X grade so there's no routes to do, no point in trying. There are lots of routes I'd love to be able to do but are too hard for me... I think that's great, something to train for and dream about.

For the record I have NEVER said 5.8 was easy. That's why "only" was in quotes in my post. 5.8 is still an accomplishment, and is still a lot of fun. Right now my partner and I are rattling off a long list of 5.8 climbs which are absolutely AWESOME.

There is one more way to deal with crowds which nobody has mentioned (assuming you REALLY have to do that one route): hang out, relax, make new friends and enjoy the circus. We put this one to use last fall in Red Rocks when we showed up on a "semi-rest day" to climb Crimson Chrysalis at noon and got behind a party of five. We met a cool father-daughter team from boulder, had a blast joking with people descending, brought coffee and doughnuts up the route with us... good times. From your posts here I can understand why this wouldn't work for you.

MaxSuffering wrote:We're the same age Kevin and I'm in the best shape of my life so don't give me any of that B.S. about how everything gets harder when you're older. I have a friend who is 70 years old and can fire off a laundry list of injuries from a broken neck to ingrown toenails and he's still out getting after it with a big smile. I have a lot of respect for that. I hate people who give up and make excuses.

One climber fatigue related shoulder surgery and the other will be going under the knife eventually as well. Not looking for speed that process up either, as the first one wasn't much fun and took me a while to get back into my usual mediocre form. What's worse is I started to finally climb really well when the injury got too painful to live with (sleep, etc) anymore. It's not an excuse, it's my reality. Didn't delve into specifics because my limitations are not how I define myself. If anything, being able to even climb at the level I do is an accomplishment for me. Thanks for your sensitivity.

I look for people not being arrogant know it alls when choosing partners. Your opinion and advice about how to 'go out and get it' have been summarily thrown in the waste paper basket where they belong. No one on this side of the internet asked for it anyway.

Damn I miss the Burchey's "rub your face in reality" posts right now...

Kevin Heckeler wrote: I agree that there's a lot of good routes that are not 5 star, but members (not me initially) mentioned 'classics' as a defining quality desired by visiting climbers. Indeed they are, for a reason. They're fun and worth getting out of bed early for. Not all climbs are, however. That's simply having standards - recognizing a good climb from a not good one. If you didn't like the car for sale at the dealer you wouldn't just buy it anyway, right? Then why settle for just any climb? Buying a car and getting to the crag are similar in that they both require time and gas money, and if you don't pick the right dealer/crag you have to leave and shop around, or buy whatever the dealer has to offer you(?)

Really? Climbing:Car buying? When was the last time you had to drop 5 figures on a climbing trip?
You're not married to a route for years to come, hopefully only for 30 minutes/pitch.

Maybe think of it more like ice cream. If you don't like the flavor, just try something else. Besides, picking a ice cream flavor is way more fun than buy a car.

Does your employer know you spend so much company time trolling MP? I might be a little jealous that you're getting paid right now.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: Really? Climbing:Car buying? When was the last time you had to drop 5 figures on a climbing trip? You're not married to a route for years to come, hopefully only for 30 minutes/pitch. Maybe think of it more like ice cream. If you don't like the flavor, just try something else. Besides, picking a ice cream flavor is way more fun than buy a car. Does your employer know you spend so much company time trolling MP? I might be a little jealous that you're getting paid right now.

It's my analogy and I'm sticking to it. It's about commitment. If I drop the ice cream cone I'd just buy another. Climbing's a tad more serious and important than that.

Yes, I'm allowed to surf when things are slow. Don't be jealous, when it's busy it's busy. And when I'm busy I'm hustling to get shit working asap (literally time = money for our clients). "Trolling"? I'm an active member here, get your intrawebs euphemisms right. Jeez. Don't you have anything better to do than poke me with a stick? Isn't THAT trolling?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: One climber fatigue related shoulder surgery and the other will be going under the knife eventually as well. Not looking for speed that process up either, as the first one wasn't much fun and took me a while to get back into my usual mediocre form. What's worse is I started to finally climb really well when the injury got too painful to live with (sleep, etc) anymore. It's not an excuse, it's my reality. Didn't delve into specifics because my limitations are not how I define myself. If anything, being able to even climb at the level I do is an accomplishment for me. Thanks for your sensitivity. I look for people not being arrogant know it alls when choosing partners. Your opinion and advice about how to 'go out and get it' have been summarily thrown in the waste paper basket where they belong. No one on this side of the internet asked for it anyway.

That sucks, sorry to hear that. No seriously Kevin, I may be having some fun here at your expense but I'm not making fun of climbing ability or physical limitations. I don't do that. 5.4 or 5.14 if you're out having fun that's awesome and I'm psyched for you (or anybody). Sympathy? Yeah not my strong suit, but I've never asked for any either. Here, let me apologize for putting my time in and becoming a good climber... nope, sorry, not going to happen.

Many of us have faced obstacles on our way to where we are. My friend broke his neck and has a semi-paralyzed hand and still climbs with the enthusiasm of a teenager. I watched a guy with one leg finish the Lake Placid Iron Man. I met a young lady who honestly weighed in the realm of 250 - 300 pounds huffing, puffing and sweating her way up Ben Nevis with a huge smile. They all had excuses to quit and nobody would have thought less of them for it, yet they did not. Those people are my heroes.

You could probably make that list. "Yeah there's this guy Kevin who has two bum shoulders and still gets out climbing and leads 5.8," but instead it's almost like you actively choose not to. I don't think you're a quitter because of limitations, injuries or the grade you climb at, you're a quitter because of the can't do, don't bother attitude you've been throwing out in this thread and others. You could take the ability you've been handed and make the best of it, instead you choose to be an ass and shit on the people who head out and do so. "Don't bother going to the High Peaks, won't be worth it..." Really? People chiming in on this thread and people I've talked to personally tell a different story. You could easily have avoided this whole pissing match entirely by just saying "I haven't had much success climbing on holiday weekends, good luck" and left it at that.

Kevin, you can take my opinions and advice and do what you wish with them. Arrogant know-it-all? Uhhh, "Hi kettle this is the pot calling..."

I'm looking for an amicable way out of this conversation. It seems like some of us are taking it way too personally and the holiday weekend is two days over, I'm already making plans for the next one. The conversation has drifted far beyond where it started and become a farce. If someone wants to start a thread about what constitutes a classic route, Adirondack grading, the best routes that rarely get climbed, how to deal with crowds, whether routes are more like cars or ice cream, have at it, I'm in, but I have no more energy for where this one's going or been.

MaxSuffering wrote: If someone wants to start a thread about what constitutes a classic route, Adirondack grading, the best routes that rarely get climbed, how to deal with crowds, whether routes are more like cars or ice cream, have at it,

Oh please god no!!!

Ok I am going to have to temporairly ignore guideline #1 because this question has been absolutely begging to be asked.
kevin, are you always a whiny little bitch or is it just when you are on MP?

OK, now that I got that out of the way you do have a point at some areas. If you are looking for G rated climbs 5.8 and under your options at Poco are pretty limited? I certainly am not a summer local there and have only done gamesmanship, bloody mary, sting and backed off Great Dihedral. I did not however seem to see a bunch of moderate well protected lines jumping out at me there? Seems like to really have a lot of options there you need to be a solid 5.11 leader? Certainly seems like the 5.11 leaders i know have a better success rate on the 9+ Great Dihedral;) I think your best bet is to stop worrying about stars and focus on the gear rateing. The protection rateing is the single most important part of a climb description. look for a cliff with options in your grade range that have good gear and go have fun.

PS this may have been from a different thread but i will save time and put it here. no it's not OK to TR through biners at lowering stations. use your own gear. the biners are only there for you to lower off if you are the last person climbing the route. Of course I ocasionally TR through the chains but I can do that because they are My chains;)