9.5mm rope, weak+light+novice belayer, belay device suggestions?

> 9.5mm rope, weak+light+novice belayer, belay device suggestions?

I would say the weak spot here is neither 9.5mm rope, nor belay device.

Novice belayer is the weak spot and the first thing to fix.

As usual, acting is based on reasonable deciding. Reasonable deciding is possible only as a result of reasonable thinking. Reasonable thinking is possible in (and maybe a bit around) our comfort zone. When our comfort zone is stretched our mind is become stressed. Stressed mind is unreasonable which leads to random decisions and random acting. When a belayer is acting randomly the belayer is technically not a belayer at all. Thus the only way to have a belayer at the base of your climb is to have an educated belayer. I mean educated enough so anything you could possible do when leading would not stretch your belayer's comfort zone. Then you are fine to use certified lead rope and certified belay device. I mean any certified lead rope and any certified (with respect to rope's specs) belay device.

Trevor. wrote:Anyone else have issues lowering with the MegaJul? I've found it to majorly suck to the point that I won't use mine if I know I'm going to be lowering my climber.

Try switching up the biner you're using. The Edelrid one works fine, provided your rope isn't a big fattie.

Even though I will probably get flamed for this comment, my suggestion is to use an Auto-Tuber (MegaJul, Smart, Click Up etc.) instead of a tuber if you are a beginner and learning the trade. It adds a level safety to the system that you wouldn't have when using a simple tuber. Practice your technique in a safe environment, then make the next step.

I'm not going to flame you Moritz; you could be right, but I don't think so, the reason being that there are multiple levels of safety. The assisted devices can be suddenly released unintentionally, after which control may not be regained, for example.

But I think the main issues are psychological. Belaying has, in general, become way too casual, with lots and lots of accidents and near-misses to prove it. The beginning belayer should be fully committed to doing the job right, rather than consciously or unconsciously thinking that their device will lock up and do their job for them even if they screw up.

I think the real problem could be that a lot of leaders are in a rush to do their thing and don't want to allot the time and effort needed for a novice to learn to belay properly. If you have "peace of mind" issues about your belayer, they aren't ready yet to belaying without someone backing them up.

RGold
I believe that you are correct in saying that not enough time is spent on teaching how to correctly belay. I think that it is compounded because many times it is a 3 person operation. Competent leader,properly instructed new climber/belayer and a competent 3rd person to watch and assist the new belayer who may have not understood what was told to them correctly or for some reason has an inherent incorrect tendency.

rgold wrote:But I think the main issues are psychological. Belaying has, in general, become way too casual, with lots and lots of accidents and near-misses to prove it. The beginning belayer should be fully committed to doing the job right, rather than consciously or unconsciously thinking that their device will lock up and do their job for them even if they screw up. I think the real problem could be that a lot of leaders are in a rush to do their thing and don't want to allot the time and effort needed for a novice to learn to belay properly. If you have "peace of mind" issues about your belayer, they aren't ready yet to belaying without someone backing them up.

Let me second it.

Also want to notice that belaying is often considering as "rest in between climbs/pitches" time actually being a hard work. Belayers should follow theirs climbers, read theirs climbers body language, respond quickly and properly, basically they should provide the best belay possible any moment from "belay is on" to "belay is off". It is a hard work requiring all attention and lot of skills. No need to notice that any belayer has to know (and by "to know" I mean "to know", reading an article in the Internet and/or watching a vid is not enough, one *should* practice it several times to build an actual skill) at least how to redirect/escape belay.

Theres been at least one MPer thats been dropped farther than he should have been on a smart

And i know a few around here that have been as well ...

Assisted braking devices are great for hard sport where you need to boink and lockoff all the time ...

But they are no substitute for a proper brake hand training on a tube device

Remember that with thin slick dry ropes at the bottom of their range, some of devices may not lock up at all

Or if the force is sufficiently high there may be slippage ... As mistah titts tests show

The last line of defense between u and the ground is yr belayers brake hand in the proper brake position

;)

Bill Lawry wrote: I got one of those when I thought I'd buy some twins - never did. Am curious, though, how well it works on a rope at the top end of its' advertised ideal range (i.e., 9.5mm) ... I'd guess it would grip as hard as the OP desires ... maybe too hard? ... looks / feels about as substantial as a bottle cap - like use it once and then throw it away. :-)

They are great. They grip well and slide well.
On rap they are a little small and heat up - take something else if you are going to rap a big wall with it.

DavidLG wrote:RGold I believe that you are correct in saying that not enough time is spent on teaching how to correctly belay. I think that it is compounded because many times it is a 3 person operation. Competent leader,properly instructed new climber/belayer and a competent 3rd person to watch and assist the new belayer who may have not understood what was told to them correctly or for some reason has an inherent incorrect tendency.

Video. Just shoot a video.

Video feedback is a very effective and highly underrated tool. Video feedback is precise, and objective, and relentless. Everything one did (including doing things right and doing things wrong) is on the tape. Anything one didn't is also there.

Thanks for the all the replies!

The novice bit perhaps deserves more explanation, that I should probably have included in my original post. She's top roped for over a year now, and passed a gym lead class+certification (which was a mere hour or two), and probably lead belayed for 2-4 sessions since. I think she's only caught 1 significant non-deliberate indoor fall.

As many point out, she definitely needs experience. She needs to be catching lots of falls, but it's a pretty cumbersome situation to have a third person holding the tail, or constantly watching hand positions, during those initial tens of hours of experience. One option is at the gym I could take a lot falls low down (thus they'll be hard) and make sure one of the giant bouldering mats is under me.

She did once remark to me, with a reverso 4 and a 10mm rope that when catching falls that it felt a bit like her shoulder was going to pop.

The 9.5mm number comes from it being the thickest rope I own - I can't find any 10.5mm's on sale - in fact the thicker ropes are the most expensive in the shops here :(

There's a few things going on here:

- How does one best make the transition from a novice to an experienced belayer in a safe and practical manner

- The cost/benefit of buying a new rope or device for use in the development period from novice to experienced belayer

- find a backup belayer

- when you get to the top of an overhung gym climb with a clean fall, clip the last bolts, dyno for the top and take the whipper

- make sure she gives u a dynamic catch (if shes lighter this will likely happen anyways without anything on her part), and the backup belayer knows to not keep the backup overly tight

Youll take a big whipper, shell get pulled up and find out what it takes to catch a good fall

Repeat several times each gym session

If she cant make the catches comfortably on those 10mm gym ropes ... Then perhaps having her belay you might not be the best

;)

r m wrote:- How does one best make the transition from a novice to an experienced belayer in a safe and practical manner

Baby steps.

First, make sure your belayer knows how to take.

Second, make sure your belayer does not panic when you are taking a "top rope" fall on lead (falls when your tie in point is below the last clipped draw).

Third, ask your belayer to lock the belay device and do nothing. Doing nothing literally means do nothing. It is important - most people been asking to do nothing immediately begin to act randomly just because "I need to do something! I'm lost and scared! AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!" After both of you ensure you both know what does it mean "lock the belay device and do nothing" begin to climb several inches higher and fall 'till the rope is stretched so you cannot climb higher.

Fourth, ask you belayer to give you a normal lead belay and continue to fall climbing a couple inches higher then a previous attempt again and again.

Fifth, begin to fall pretending to do a climbing move. Simulating a real lead fall.

Sixth, commit to an actual lead fall by trying a loooooooooooong impossible move.

Seventh, finish any and every climb with a real lead fall for several weeks in a row.

Now your belayer is comfortable with arresting lead falls. Now your belayer is pretending to be a belayer (actually your belayer is only pretending to be a belayer, there are a lot more things to learn before one can apply this word to the person you are learing how to belay).

r m wrote: The 9.5mm number comes from it being the thickest rope I own - I can't find any 10.5mm's on sale - in fact the thicker ropes are the most expensive in the shops here :(

Ebay.

Ankles are currently unbroken :D

I found a 10.5mm Mammut for the equivalent of 90USD.

Also procured a clickup, very interesting device - I'll use it with the 9.5mm for a while and see what I make of it.

In the meantime the bulk of the 10.5 ought to provide a safe level of friction.