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Guides top-roping classic routes at Looking Glass

Original Post
Curtis Baird · · Johnson City, TN · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 1,041

I was at Looking Glass Saturday. It was raining and we were climbing on the North Side because it has some routes that stay dry. When we arrived at The Seal some guides from a camp had three top ropes set up on the route. Two gear anchors on the route and one on the bolted belay. One guide asked us what we were climbing and I asked if it was alright if I could lead past his top ropes. I said I would stay out of his way. He then told me he did not think that was a good idea but said he would allow us to climb on his ropes. After that statement we left the area and went to Invisible Airwaves were some other climbers gladly shared the route with us. Any thoughts?

Ernest W · · Asheville, NC · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 25

Your post implies that you would be climbing above the guide and his clients. If so, that would be a very big no-no.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

It sounds to me like the group was pretty amenable (which does not always happen with NC summer camps). The guided group was clearly there first and managed to set up three top ropes for their guests while occupying only one route that's frequently led. Given the tight real-estate on a rainy day at the north side, it seems like they were trying hard to be considerate. Plus, they offered to let you climb on their ropes, so even though they were there first, they still gave you an option to share.

As for climbing through, while in some places the traditional ethic is that the leader gets priority and can "play through," on a climb like The Seal that doesn't make a whole lot of sense given that it is largely done as a single pitch climb. If you'd shown up with aid gear ready to take the thing to the top and they shut you down because they had a top rope up, that would be pretty lame. However, that was not the case.

It also sounds like you had a good time on Invisible Airwaves, which is an equally classic and worthy line (and has similar characteristics regarding the lead). So, despite there being a guided group around, you still got to do a cool climb. To me it sounds like everybody won.

That said, I will acknowledge that it can be a major bummer to have your heart set on a route only to show up and find another party on it. I'd argue, though, that it doesn't make much difference whether that party is guided or independent recreationalists. The summer campers have every right to enjoy their public lands just the same as you. If they happen to use a guide service to help ensure their safety, that's their (well, likely their parents') prerogative. The route is still occupied one way or another.

With a large group like that, it's often tempting to villanize the guide or their clients. If they're a good guide, though, they'll share (much like a good recreational party will, too). If the guide has a small party, they're often up, down, and gone to the next climb far quicker than a similarly sized recreational group would be. If it's a large group, a good guide will at the very least make sure the ropes are always in use and allow others to use them if not. This is usually contrasted by large recreational parties who will string up a half-dozen ropes and leave them unattended as they lay about in their hammocks and eat lunch or whatever.

It'd be asking a lot of any climber though, guided or not, to lead directly over their heads, especially on a route with such spectacular swinging fall potential as The Seal. For full disclosure, I am a guide, and it pisses me off to no end when I see poor guiding and domineering of routes at the crag. This does nothing but create strife for everyone. I call that crap out when I see it. In this case, though, they seemed to act reasonably, so I feel the need to recognize that. I hope you have a chance to get on The Seal soon, though.

Barrett Pauer · · Brevard, NC · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 775

Sounds like all's well that ends well. Northside is badass!

JasonP · · Clemson, SC · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 30

Curtis, your hair is epic!

Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623

I think Derek nailed it. They seemed respectable even though letting you lead through would be a bad idea. Besides, the Seal is not the best rainy day option as your belayer will get soaked as well as the start of the climb.

When headed to the north face on a rainy day, just expect that all the dry routes will be taken. This way you won't set yourself up for disappointment. If you can climb into the 12's or do aid, then there will always be something open. Cathy's is another rainy option if the humidity isn't too high or the temps didn't hit the dew point that morning.

Another option if the Nose has gotten too boring, try the Snotty Nose (name credit goes to Nathan). For a real adventure, try it on all tri-cams.

Barrett Pauer · · Brevard, NC · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 775

What is this "snotty nose" you speak of?

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

Never heard it called the "snotty nose" before, but the occasional wet/raining ascent of the nose does happen. It's surprisingly reasonable.

David Grahek · · Kill Devil Hills, NC · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 1
Derek DeBruin wrote:It sounds to me like the group was pretty amenable (which does not always happen with NC summer camps). The guided group was clearly there first and managed to set up three top ropes for their guests while occupying only one route that's frequently led. Given the tight real-estate on a rainy day at the north side, it seems like they were trying hard to be considerate. Plus, they offered to let you climb on their ropes, so even though they were there first, they still gave you an option to share. As for climbing through, while in some places the traditional ethic is that the leader gets priority and can "play through," on a climb like The Seal that doesn't make a whole lot of sense given that it is largely done as a single pitch climb. If you'd shown up with aid gear ready to take the thing to the top and they shut you down because they had a top rope up, that would be pretty lame. However, that was not the case. It also sounds like you had a good time on Invisible Airwaves, which is an equally classic and worthy line (and has similar characteristics regarding the lead). So, despite there being a guided group around, you still got to do a cool climb. To me it sounds like everybody won. That said, I will acknowledge that it can be a major bummer to have your heart set on a route only to show up and find another party on it. I'd argue, though, that it doesn't make much difference whether that party is guided or independent recreationalists. The summer campers have every right to enjoy their public lands just the same as you. If they happen to use a guide service to help ensure their safety, that's their (well, likely their parents') prerogative. The route is still occupied one way or another. With a large group like that, it's often tempting to villanize the guide or their clients. If they're a good guide, though, they'll share (much like a good recreational party will, too). If the guide has a small party, they're often up, down, and gone to the next climb far quicker than a similarly sized recreational group would be. If it's a large group, a good guide will at the very least make sure the ropes are always in use and allow others to use them if not. This is usually contrasted by large recreational parties who will string up a half-dozen ropes and leave them unattended as they lay about in their hammocks and eat lunch or whatever. It'd be asking a lot of any climber though, guided or not, to lead directly over their heads, especially on a route with such spectacular swinging fall potential as The Seal. For full disclosure, I am a guide, and it pisses me off to no end when I see poor guiding and domineering of routes at the crag. This does nothing but create strife for everyone. I call that crap out when I see it. In this case, though, they seemed to act reasonably, so I feel the need to recognize that. I hope you have a chance to get on The Seal soon, though.
Great response, Derek. Well written and explained.
nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,713
Derek DeBruin wrote:Never heard it called the "snotty nose" before, but the occasional wet/raining ascent of the nose does happen. It's surprisingly reasonable.
I think Tom is probably referring to the middle pitches of the Seal when slightly wet. There might have been a comment (or two) about the pitches looking a lot like they were covered in snot... or something like that. There might have also been some cursing and swinging around on ropes involved that day as well.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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