IS CLIMBING BOOTY “THEFT BY FINDING”?

Thanks to Mark for returning my yellow X4 off Hindu Kush. It was getting late and we were losing daylight. My girlfriend couldn't complete the traverse to retrieve all my gear. I was able to rappel down and get all but one piece way out right. Mark was kind enough to come back the next day, retrieve it and then kindly mail it to me. That's what I call a good deed.

TSluiter wrote: losing any creditability

Is that the ability to get a loan or credit card?

Bill Kirby wrote: The thread doesn't just have to be about booty. Posts could be "I like MP because I feel like a winner cause I know everything" or I don't like MP because I get my feelings hurt.

In that case, I totally agree. It'd be pretty hilarious.

Muscrat wrote: Who is going to prosecute the theft of a used, abandoned, $12 nut? Get a laugh, call the cops.

^^ This right here. All this legal talk is just useless banter - OP, have you or anyone you know ever "Lawyered Up" to get that blue camalot back that was left behind or forgotten??
For the most part, climbers are pretty good about making a reasonable effort to return gear of "significant" value. Consider yourselves lucky, before the internet that shit just didn't happen very often at all.

If you bail and leave everything up to help with a rescue - that is NOT booty.

If you are being rescued - your gear is not booty either.

If you stick a rapell rope right at dark - that is not booty early the next morning.

If you stick a nut or a cam and can't get it out but the next guy does - that is booty - IF you want it to be - but returning it might bring you some karma - but that is booty more or less by definition.

If you find an entire rack at the base of a climb well after dark and no one is around when you yell a lot- if you carry it down and turn it in to the climbing shop - you don't have to buy beer for a while that trip when the guy finds it and thanks you.

If you are following a group and the newbie second does a dumbass and just unclips the rope and doesn't clean the piece - for Gods sake give it back to them when you catch up. We were all new once and made mistakes.

I guess its not as simple as what "can" be considered booty as what "should" be.

Tim Lutz wrote:. Climbers have a long, proud tradition of taking each other's stuff. its a fun little game ...to do otherwise is un-Merican

That's the best one yet, Tim, on EITHER side of the globe...I had a good chuckle. Thanks. Can I use it?

Just found BOOTY! Believe it belongs to some hottie thirty something climber girl. Contact me and I will return it promptly. Could be forty something, fifty something, sixty something, all are fine by me. Do not want to be charged with theft by finding.

As a newer climber pushing into steeper climbs I have stolen 'cleaning' biners used to re-direct the leader lowering off to clean.

'Booty biner!' I thought.

Then once I slammed into the tree behind the route when I swung backward after cleaning my bottom draw. I deserved my fate and learned my lesson. Be warned ye n00b booty hounds out there.

Tim Lutz wrote:. Climbers have a long, proud tradition of taking each other's stuff. its a fun little game ...to do otherwise is un-Merican

And if you are Fred Beckey he'll steal yer gear, routes, booze, and women. You have been warned.

Thanks for your comments everyone. On the topic...it's about the same vibe as in Oz. Here's a summary:
- a lot of people will try to do the right thing. And in the case of landing on that tree after you took that booty, Eric...yep, as we say in Oz, look out for your karma running over your dogma :)
- those who hold to the 'booty' principle are unable to provide any basis that withstands objective scrutiny. Just personally, I think that, taking into account comments from one corner of the globe to another, Tim Lutz BEST nailed the opposing view...though I haven't tested Europe yet, Tim. And I am not judging...many of we Australians are, after all, convict descendants.
- no-one will be taking anyone to court for a nut or a cam. Same mistake in Oz...if you read the OP, you'll see that that was understood. But, if in Australia we reintroduce gibbeting, who knows...
- someone (I won't name any other names) I think struck a chord with me and others over here...if it's there and you don't plan to post online to find it's owner...just leave it there. Under the principles (if not the law) of abandonment, and, over time, either it will find its owner (when they return to retrieve it, or when you give it back to them), or, the law allows for the person retrieving it to become the legal owner (as in Missouri (?) and at least some (if not all) Australian states).
- I sensed a few people wanted to tell me to **** off, in a polite, warm, fuzzy kinda way. Yeah... :) ...I got that over here too... perhaps not so warmly though. Thanks for keeping it warm :)

Anyway, see you next year on MP, when I look for climbing partners for my first ever trip stateside (yahoo!). I won't tag my gear.

Chris

Avast, me hearties

Rrrrr

Does anyone have a booty wall at home? I think the only time I have ever used booty was a nut one time, i normally just collect and hang it on my wall. Always keep a few biners I have found encase I need to bail and leave one.

KyleT wrote: Interesting point, if we assume someone else is willing to take what does not belong to them, is it then okay for you or I to beat them to it?

The fundamental difference is that some folks don't agree that stuck gear "belongs" to the other person. That's the crux of the issue.

Some folks believe in personal accountability and are willing to accept the (however unpleasant) consequences of screwing up.

Embarking on a journey for which one is not prepared -- or with a partner who is not prepared -- is a choice, and therefore getting gear stuck is a choice. If someone doesn't want to leave behind stuck gear, then they can either make sure their placements are good and their partner knows how to clean, or lower themselves to get the gear, or choose to not go until they're better-prepared...

Walking into a risky situation that has potential for accident and emergency bailing on gear is a choice. If someone doesn't want to encounter that situation, then they can choose to not be there in the first place...

It's very nice when someone returns something that I leave behind (whether due to brain fart, overestimating the weather or my abilities, or general lack of preparedness for the situation), but I don't expect it... I accept it, trying to learn from the situation and do better next time.

The "cost" of asking for booty gear back from the recipient is higher than I will pay. I'd say nothing before asking for it back.

Kent Richards wrote: The fundamental difference is that some folks don't agree that stuck gear "belongs" to the other person.

And the fundamental logical flaw in this reasoning is that it's based on the assumption that the "finder" KNOWS the reason why that gear is there. Was it really abandoned by choice (gave up trying to clean it, bailed off it, etc.), or could it be there for some different reason - like, maybe it was just forgotten? Can you really know for sure? Sure, someone might say that if it was forgotten it's fair game because of carelessness...but - would that also apply to someone who, say, dropped their wallet? We can rationalize booty gear all we want, and honestly, a lot of the times we're probably right, but ultimately, we're rationalizing it based on an assumption we make, without actually knowing the exact circumstances. No, it's not the worst sin in history, but it's an interesting and in some ways questionable aspect of climber culture, and I'm not sure why some people get so defensive about it and refuse to entertain at least having a conversation about it.

We've got three pages here of people clearly NOT refusing to have a conversation about it.

Can we at least agree that a wallet and a piece of climbing gear are two very different things?

Gear - frequently, though not always, left behind intentionally. Wallet - almost never left behind intentionally.

Gear - frequently difficult or impossible to identify by looking at the gear who the owner was. Wallet - almost always contains specific identifying information.

Gear - owner's rack is a little lighter, owner is a little sadder. Wallet - at best a major inconvenience for weeks, at worst financially crippling identity theft issues for years.

If it's in the rock it was put there to protect the life of the person that placed it and the person following. You put the gear in a placement and you clip it to the rope. You know it's there, so does the second. If it's left behind, it's because your party LEFT IT BEHIND.

Now there are lots of different reasons this can happen, but if it's in the rock, the party was aware it was there. It's not the same as leaving it at the base of the route because you forgot to put it in your pack before you left, and it's certainly not the same as losing a wallet.

ITT: OP writes a post on a piece of published legal information and it's application to climbing in Australia to prompt a discussion about the law. MP shits it's collective pants and generates fallacy ridden arguments about why their personal ethics should be taken as law without any educated, concrete legal evidence that the OP's ideas don't apply...Bravo chaps.

Well then, let me ask this: If I can't keep the gear, but it's in my way (say the only good placement for another 20' or whatever) what do I do with it? If I have to remove it, do I have a responsibility to go out of my way to find the owner? Do I need to have my second out it back when they're done cleaning the piece I put in that same place? Am I supposed to run it out? Or should I whip on my last piece and then lower off and leave some of my gear behind?

It's Australian and UK case law. You could show me the US laws and I still wouldn't care. If it's left in the rock and I find it, I'll decide what to do with it. That doesn't mean the owner will absolutely not get it back, but I'm not going to be told what I shall or shall not do with it. I'd rather throw good gear into some bushes than be legally obligated to find the owner.

Don't tread on me!

Wow, thanks for that, guys, because, you know, I clearly don't know the difference between a wallet and a #10 stopper. But hey, this is MP, so of course it's easier to be condescending and write a bunch of things about why someone's example is WRONG, instead of trying to understand the point that's being made by said example. Well...for the sake of not giving up just yet, I'll try again:

-I'm aware that climbing gear is not the same thing as a wallet. However, I used the example to illustrate two cases where a typical response is based on an ASSUMPTION about the nature behind the object found - not actual facts.

-I'm NOT saying that people who booty gear are evil and deserve eternal hellfire. I've done it myself, and have never asked for anything I've abandoned back, nor do I expect it. All I'm saying is that it's an ethical (as well as possibly legal) gray area, and it doesn't hurt to occasionally think about it from a perspective that we're maybe not used to - even if we ultimately conclude that it's all good :)