IS CLIMBING BOOTY THEFT BY FINDING?
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Thanks to Mark for returning my yellow X4 off Hindu Kush. It was getting late and we were losing daylight. My girlfriend couldn't complete the traverse to retrieve all my gear. I was able to rappel down and get all but one piece way out right. Mark was kind enough to come back the next day, retrieve it and then kindly mail it to me. That's what I call a good deed. |
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TSluiter wrote: losing any creditabilityIs that the ability to get a loan or credit card? |
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Bill Kirby wrote: The thread doesn't just have to be about booty. Posts could be "I like MP because I feel like a winner cause I know everything" or I don't like MP because I get my feelings hurt.In that case, I totally agree. It'd be pretty hilarious. |
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Muscrat wrote: Who is going to prosecute the theft of a used, abandoned, $12 nut? Get a laugh, call the cops.^^ This right here. All this legal talk is just useless banter - OP, have you or anyone you know ever "Lawyered Up" to get that blue camalot back that was left behind or forgotten?? For the most part, climbers are pretty good about making a reasonable effort to return gear of "significant" value. Consider yourselves lucky, before the internet that shit just didn't happen very often at all. |
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If you bail and leave everything up to help with a rescue - that is NOT booty. |
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Tim Lutz wrote:. Climbers have a long, proud tradition of taking each other's stuff. its a fun little game ...to do otherwise is un-MericanThat's the best one yet, Tim, on EITHER side of the globe...I had a good chuckle. Thanks. Can I use it? |
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Just found BOOTY! Believe it belongs to some hottie thirty something climber girl. Contact me and I will return it promptly. Could be forty something, fifty something, sixty something, all are fine by me. Do not want to be charged with theft by finding. |
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As a newer climber pushing into steeper climbs I have stolen 'cleaning' biners used to re-direct the leader lowering off to clean. |
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Tim Lutz wrote:. Climbers have a long, proud tradition of taking each other's stuff. its a fun little game ...to do otherwise is un-MericanAnd if you are Fred Beckey he'll steal yer gear, routes, booze, and women. You have been warned. |
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Thanks for your comments everyone. On the topic...it's about the same vibe as in Oz. Here's a summary: |
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Avast, me hearties |
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Does anyone have a booty wall at home? I think the only time I have ever used booty was a nut one time, i normally just collect and hang it on my wall. Always keep a few biners I have found encase I need to bail and leave one. |
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KyleT wrote: Interesting point, if we assume someone else is willing to take what does not belong to them, is it then okay for you or I to beat them to it?The fundamental difference is that some folks don't agree that stuck gear "belongs" to the other person. That's the crux of the issue. Some folks believe in personal accountability and are willing to accept the (however unpleasant) consequences of screwing up. Embarking on a journey for which one is not prepared -- or with a partner who is not prepared -- is a choice, and therefore getting gear stuck is a choice. If someone doesn't want to leave behind stuck gear, then they can either make sure their placements are good and their partner knows how to clean, or lower themselves to get the gear, or choose to not go until they're better-prepared... Walking into a risky situation that has potential for accident and emergency bailing on gear is a choice. If someone doesn't want to encounter that situation, then they can choose to not be there in the first place... It's very nice when someone returns something that I leave behind (whether due to brain fart, overestimating the weather or my abilities, or general lack of preparedness for the situation), but I don't expect it... I accept it, trying to learn from the situation and do better next time. |
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The "cost" of asking for booty gear back from the recipient is higher than I will pay. I'd say nothing before asking for it back. |
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Kent Richards wrote: The fundamental difference is that some folks don't agree that stuck gear "belongs" to the other person.And the fundamental logical flaw in this reasoning is that it's based on the assumption that the "finder" KNOWS the reason why that gear is there. Was it really abandoned by choice (gave up trying to clean it, bailed off it, etc.), or could it be there for some different reason - like, maybe it was just forgotten? Can you really know for sure? Sure, someone might say that if it was forgotten it's fair game because of carelessness...but - would that also apply to someone who, say, dropped their wallet? We can rationalize booty gear all we want, and honestly, a lot of the times we're probably right, but ultimately, we're rationalizing it based on an assumption we make, without actually knowing the exact circumstances. No, it's not the worst sin in history, but it's an interesting and in some ways questionable aspect of climber culture, and I'm not sure why some people get so defensive about it and refuse to entertain at least having a conversation about it. |
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We've got three pages here of people clearly NOT refusing to have a conversation about it. |
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If it's in the rock it was put there to protect the life of the person that placed it and the person following. You put the gear in a placement and you clip it to the rope. You know it's there, so does the second. If it's left behind, it's because your party LEFT IT BEHIND. |
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ITT: OP writes a post on a piece of published legal information and it's application to climbing in Australia to prompt a discussion about the law. MP shits it's collective pants and generates fallacy ridden arguments about why their personal ethics should be taken as law without any educated, concrete legal evidence that the OP's ideas don't apply...Bravo chaps. |
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Well then, let me ask this: If I can't keep the gear, but it's in my way (say the only good placement for another 20' or whatever) what do I do with it? If I have to remove it, do I have a responsibility to go out of my way to find the owner? Do I need to have my second out it back when they're done cleaning the piece I put in that same place? Am I supposed to run it out? Or should I whip on my last piece and then lower off and leave some of my gear behind? |
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Wow, thanks for that, guys, because, you know, I clearly don't know the difference between a wallet and a #10 stopper. But hey, this is MP, so of course it's easier to be condescending and write a bunch of things about why someone's example is WRONG, instead of trying to understand the point that's being made by said example. Well...for the sake of not giving up just yet, I'll try again: |