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The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

Mike Robinson · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 251

I missed some good stuff on here. Dylan what are you doing?!?!

LLeoj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

- TO THE BRO SNAPPING PICS OF MY ANCHOR ON THE BOY SCOUT ROUTE - EAST BLUFF -

PLEASE post some pics of my super sketchy 7/16 static line anchor with 3 solid placements......

Let everyone tell you how much better your setup is... 5mm cord(seriously dude?!)... A knotted(for what? idk) sling loosely girth-hitched to a boulder... A wayyy under-cammed alien(circa 1990)... Add to that a webbing extension and what do you get?.... BOMBER!!!

If only I could have taken some pics of THAT setup for jive-ass anchors! lol

LLeoj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0
powhound84 wrote: What are you talking about? Some background info might help. Did this person actually tell you that your anchor was sketchy? Could he have been taking pics to show someone an example of a good anchor? I'm lost but I assume we have to be missing a chunk of the story. Regarding the anchor you are critiquing, pics or it didn't happen...
Saw him snapping pics and after he walked down(why not rappel?) I mentioned something to the effect of "Get some jive-ass anchor pics up there?" to which he replied yes.... he continued with - "You're not going to die on it, but I mean...yeah" at which point he started talking about a different anchor he saw that was ACTUALLY sketchy on another climb.... lol

I seriously regretted leaving my phone with my girlfriend after I topped out to set another anchor down the way and saw what he was climbing on!... Just grinds my gears when someone is trying to preach without practicing... So much so that I made a name on MP to call it out - apologies for the negativity.

Rant over.
Mike Robinson · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 251
powhound84 wrote: What are you talking about? Some background info might help. Did this person actually tell you that your anchor was sketchy? Could he have been taking pics to show someone an example of a good anchor? I'm lost but I assume we have to be missing a chunk of the story. Regarding the anchor you are critiquing, pics or it didn't happen...
Don't feed the troll! (But I agree, pics or didn't happen)
LLeoj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0
Mike Robinson wrote: Don't feed the troll! (But I agree, pics or didn't happen)
The troll has been fed!!! hah

I will accept 'pics or it didn't happen', but regardless of the other persons setup, it is bothersome when an ABSOLUTELY bomber(SRENE, EARNEST, whatever) anchor is criticized because someone thinks they know it all and have seen it all.

Ok, rant ACTUALLY over.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

I'm still lost.

Are you referencing the original post? Is the original poster the person and/or anchor picture you have an issue with?

Edit to add:
I believe you are talking about Mr. Dylan - I had to reread through the posts.

Leoj,

Please explain your side of the story so we get to understand your reasoning, and not have to rely on just someone's pictures of what the situation was.

This is an opportunity for us all to learn, and for you to build a rapport with the community here.

Excuse my reply to Dylan's post, for it is all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Let us discuss this and let everyone learn something new and stay safe to climb, and enjoy another day of the things we love.

What say you?

Mike Robinson · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 251

I brought my second up on a 2 pt anchor this weekend, poorly equalized. I forgot to take pictures. When she whipped the anchor nearly blew the whole lake up. Can we get back to posting pictures of shitty TR anchors?

roger fritz · · Rockford, IL · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 60
Mike Robinson wrote:I brought my second up on a 2 pt anchor this weekend, poorly equalized. I forgot to take pictures. When she whipped the anchor nearly blew the whole lake up. Can we get back to posting pictures of shitty TR anchors?
Many people don't have knowledge of what principles to follow when they build anchors. Many climbers look at their anchors and declare them good based on conjecture.
Hopefully we are seeking the truth behind the makeup of bomber anchors in which our lives, and the lives of our friends, will place their trust in.
Cheers
Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

Posting this one as a question. Shouldn't the minimun size be at least like 6 or 7mm cord? I think this is 4mm and the orange is 5mm.

hmm..?

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Personally, I think 8mm is usually overkill, but 4mm is way too thin and 5mm usually makes me nervous. As powhound suggests, the issue is abrasion not strength in a TR setup. Even if an anchor system is stable side-to-side, thin cord gives enough that you get abrasion at the edge as the system is repeatedly weighted and unweighted, especially over sharp quartzite edges.

If one anchor point blew, I wouldn't be surprised if a 4mm cord cut completely through as the system settled, and I wouldn't be surprised if 5mm cord was totally ruined. I feel pretty good about 6mm, myself. Don't most textbooks recommend 7mm?

I usually use 6mm, as a cordolette tied in a loop (no single cord legs in the system) for belaying at the top. At the Lake I usually use 1 inch tubular webbing for TR setups.

Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

This one is obviously strong enough but I find it a bit laughable. Some interesting tactics. Referring to the hitched together nuts. I'd consider it a "cluster Fu&k". :)

lol

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155
Joel Allen wrote:This one is obviously strong enough but I find it a bit laughable. Some interesting tactics. Referring to the hitched together nuts. I'd consider it a "cluster Fu&k". :)
Actually, this thing looks great. I am not really sure about the nut on the left, but I have an explanation of the the nut on the right (that is hitched to the red nut). Looks like if you clipped a carabiner to the right nut, the biner would be cross loaded over the edge. Using a nut hitch prevents this. Whoever made this anchor knew what s/he was doing.
Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

haha I would only make an anchor like this if that were literally the only gear I had and had to make them work. This is way more complicated then it needs to be.

Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

I agree that it is bomber as well! I'm just says its soo inefficient. That piece of blue webbing was at least 30 feet long. Could have made the whole anchor with it, especially on Brinton's.... :) I shared because I thought it was interesting. :)

Edit: Blue webbing goes to decently placed #2 c4. Which would have went perfectly in the large crack shown.

Jeff Howard · · Hales Corners WI · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0
Joel Allen wrote:This one is obviously strong enough but I find it a bit laughable. Some interesting tactics. Referring to the hitched together nuts. I'd consider it a "cluster Fu&k". :)
Soo hitching two nuts together to avoid loading a carabiner on a sharp edge is actually a thing. Not knowing that indicates you may want to gain more experience before criticizing. Building anchors is an individual thing and as long as the placements are good there is nothing wrong with this anchor. I would have done it differently but who cares as long as the anchor is bomber.

This thread in general is a bit weird but now way out there. If I see an anchor that is obviously jacked I casually mention it to the party. Sometimes they are happy to get the feedback other times they are not. In all the years I have been climbing though I have never seen one of these jacked anchors fail and cause an injury or death. This I believe is a testament to the redundancy of the systems and the relatively low demand on TR anchors. Twice I have seen anchors at the Lake that were totally unsafe as they used loose rock for part of the system. I insisted the setter come check out the issue and offered suggestions that solved the problem both times the setters were initially pissed but saw the light and even helped move the loose rock back away from the edge. In both cases it was early in the year and the rocks must have worked loose over the winter. It is fine to elevate the safety of everyone at the Lake by watching out for each other but posting a pic of an anchor you do not understand and labeling it jacked is not
Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

Again. Lol I said it was bomber. I didn't say anything to the people because I had no problem with this anchor. But I stand by the fact that I think its a cluster fuck lol. Because it is.

And you're right, I'm not very experienced, I started climbing last summer. so I'm learning from this pictures and these comments.

Peace :)

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Joel Allen wrote:This one is obviously strong enough but I find it a bit laughable. Some interesting tactics. Referring to the hitched together nuts. I'd consider it a "cluster Fu&k". :)
Joel, while this thing is perhaps a bit over-engineered, I'd hardly call it a cluster. Girth hitching nuts is standard practice to avoid levering 'biners over an edge - other solutions exists, but this works just fine.

Yes, a bomber anchor could have been made with less, but this thing is pretty good. Assuming that the individual placements are legit, the only other real criticisms I have are the girth hitched slings at the master point, and the 'biner on the blue webbing being slightly levered over the rock. All-told (again assuming the placements are good) this gets a "B+" in my book with notches off for the girth hitched master point, the levered 'biner, and the inefficiency. I'd climb on it, but there are better solutions using less of the gear pictured.
Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

See I learned something new. I guess I just don't understand why you would ever choose to make an anchor like this when he had a full rack. I would have maybe thought he was going to lead it but then why would he place 2 #2s? Briton's eats those up.

I also prefer to say over-built vs over-engineered in this case. To me this is a mess, whether I'm highly experienced or not.... (In my case, not). But at least I admit it and am not too proud to take advice like too many climbers are. :)

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

I take Joel to be saying this latest example is unaesthetic, ungraceful, and I agree with that. "Cluster fu&k" is a bit strong.

I take Jeff to be saying that we are agonizing over minor stuff since this is a TR. I sort of agree, except that these are the anchor-building habits and attitudes we take with us when we go elsewhere. To me this anchor says "lack of confidence in his/her placements" and maybe also "in the habit of overbuilding"?

I'd give it a C, James. And then climb on it.

My biggest pet peeve is that the master point is above the edge and then two slings go over the edge in unison. That habit will lead to gear that is unnecessarily sawed over/along the edge at some point ... but probably not on this particular anchor.

This is one of my benchmark places to have beginners set a TR. It ought to be easy, fast, textbook, with no need to resort to gear trickery.

But even if someone in my party set it, I'd climb on it without bothering to rebuild it.

Joel Allen · · La Crosse, WI · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 265

Well said Doug :)

Maybe this will help my case a bit, placed by the same party. Hard to tell but well undercammed and biner may be levering over an edge. :/

hmm

Here's one from the same party. That #1 is placed behind a block that we all know moves. I put my foot on it and it moved....

hmmm

I remain skeptical. :)

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