Retrobolting

gription wrote: Yes if you are not actice in development I believe your voice is less valuable.

Yes, you've made that point abundantly clear already. I just find it ironic that someone uses the phrase "give back" (altruism) and "be heard" (egoism/sense of superiority) in the same sentence and sentiment. I don't really get it. But I suppose we all do things for our own reasons, so whatever floats your boat.

John Byrnes wrote: ... but far fewer intentional Sprad climbs. In my experience many of those Sprad climbs were intended to be Sport but the bolts are in the wrong place..." it?

Well having climbed to many "sprad" routes to count on the East Side and having met many of the primary FAs I can tell you you are dead wrong. Most of the far off first bolts I've Ive encountered were put up that way by intent or simply becuase that was the best stance they could find, sometins they just didn't want to spend the $2.00 on a low bolt, and sometimes they even did it to keep the "riff raff" off. Egotistical, perhapse but they got there first and the east side tradition is "respect to the style of the FA". Again if you disagree with the FA it's the tradition to find the FA and talk about modifying his climb. Anything else will usually start a war.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: ... I just find it ironic that someone uses the phrase "give back" (altruism) and "be heard" (egoism/sense of superiority) in the same sentence and sentiment. I don't really get it.

I do not usually feel qualified to offer opinions on topics where I lack experience. And by side effect discount the opinioins those who are not directly involved or experienced.

gription wrote: I do not usually feel qualified to offer opinions on topics where I lack experience. And by side effect discount the opinioins those who are not directly involved or experienced.

OK, then two questions:

1) Why do you develop?
2) Why bother talking to someone whose opinion doesn't matter?

Alexey Dynkin wrote: OK, then two questions: 1) Why do you develop? 2) Why bother talking to someone whose opinion doesn't matter?

To be clear I have never been the primary FA on any ascent but in order here ya go.

1) I like the idea that I am giving back to the comunity. Somebody has to do it. It gives me a voice in these matters. This platform allows me to make a climb safer (read adding bolts, or coming back with a crow bar and moving truck size blocks). I get a thrill ticking the first free onsight flash/redpoint attempt of a new route. I want to carry on the ground up tradition that East Side FAs have started. I want my opinion to be valid.

2) Because folks who lack respect can still buy roto hammers!

Dylan B wrote: I've never placed a bolt and never will (prefer cams). But I'm an experienced enough climber that I can have an informed opinion about whether a climb is well bolted. I also don't build cars, but I can figure out which are better built than others. Just because I don't drill, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

Send your inputs to Ford Motor Company and tell me how far you get. XD

In his last half-dozen posts, Gryption proves he's unable to participate in any type of rational discussion of the issues. I suggest we all ignore him until he drops his Pit bull persona and contributes something constructive.

Bigot: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: Why can't developers outside see it that way?

AD. The difference between outside and inside is, inside you put up a hold. Outside we use the holds the rock gives us. Sometimes you don't get a good stance or good clipping hold so you climb the harder bits moving to the better clipping hold. Sometimes that clipping stance is ground fall but getting to it isn't. Generally, there are no rules outside. I do however have two that I follow. 2. Make the clipping stances work for short people and 1. nobody should get badly hurt on a climb I've put up. This takes practice and training. The first climbs we put up in the early nineties pretty much sucked. We've gone back and fixed them.

The other poster was right. Putting up new routes will give you a better appreciation for the work done by the FA although I'm not sure I agree with the tone.

This applies to all the routes I put in whether it's a .10, .11, or .12. Some are going to scare you a bit and some not. Depends on what the rock gives me and my mood.

I believe climbing to be a test of physical and mental strength. Some will disagree. Plenty of routes to choose from so go enjoy what you like.

Brad

rockvoyager wrote: AD. The difference between outside and inside is, inside you put up a hold. Outside we use the holds the rock gives us. Sometimes you don't get a good stance or good clipping hold so you climb the harder bits moving to the better clipping hold. Sometimes that clipping stance is ground fall but getting to it isn't. Generally, there are no rules outside. I do however have two that I follow. 2. Make the clipping stances work for short people and 1. nobody should get badly hurt on a climb I've put up. This takes practice and training. The first climbs we put up in the early nineties pretty much sucked. We've gone back and fixed them. The other poster was right. Putting up new routes will give you a better appreciation for the work done by the FA although I'm not sure I agree with the tone. This applies to all the routes I put in whether it's a .10, .11, or .12. Some are going to scare you a bit and some not. Depends on what the rock gives me and my mood. I believe climbing to be a test of physical and mental strength. Some will disagree. Plenty of routes to choose from so go enjoy what you like. Brad

I don't think we're disagreeing. What you wrote suggest that you DO care about the routes you set, and what others think of them. Which is the only point I was trying to make with my gym setting example (and NOT to compare it with bolting outside). What you're saying seems totally reasonable to me.

Cheers,

AD

Jason Halladay wrote:Good discussion here. Another point I didn't see made yet is that perhaps that second bolt is where it is because there's no good rock suitable for a bolt between bolts 1 and 2. Often, those that have never done any route development don't consider this because they've never thought about it because they're not out there hammering on the rock and cleaning the route.

Good point. I've been lucky enough not to get totally skunked in this regard but I certainly have had to place bolts in second-, third- and fourth-choice places. Since I place glue-ins, I have a bit more margin than with expansion bolts.

Jason Halladay wrote: No need to take the first one out to be clear about this. The first bolt can be used a directional or still there and use for a lead protection bolt for those "bold" climbers out there that still hate on stick-clipping (and don't value their ankles as much as I value mine.) As a heavy 6'5" climber that outweighs my belayer by quite a bit, I often stick clip the second bolt. This decision can be left up to the individual climber's evaluate.

A GREAT point, especially since we've recently had lots of discussions about how to belay when one person outweighs the other by a large amount.

Guys regularly climb with their wife or girl friend and can outweigh them by 50lbs or more. Due to the high fall factors, falling at bolt 1, 2 or sometimes 3, can mean ending up on the ground even with "perfectly placed" bolts.

Suck it up! Boulder that shit! Are we forgetting that this is ROCK CLIMBING?! Not "hang off a bolt too scared to deck climbing" if it's that sketchy, drop a pad and give it an R rating. Don't stress out on the first few bolts. Just extra protection to me. Yes, there are important safety issues to be concerned with, but it's climbing. Grab that rock and don't fall. Maybe I shouldn't surf where there are great whites unless I have a spotter in the air and under me.

But on the actual topic, retro bolting, I believe there should always be open discussions with route setters. Always potential for change and growth

caesar.salad wrote:Wait, 15 feet? That's bouldering territory. I'm a sport climber through and through, but come on.

Yes, and no.

Falling from 15 feet is fairly pedestrian if there's a pad down there, or at least a clean flat landing. But sometimes there's big rocks, loose talus, trees, cactus, Manzanita, etc.

In my opinion bouldering, especially high-balling, is pure bold climbing. More so even than trad climbing, regardless of how many pads you have.

rockvoyager wrote: I do however have two that I follow. 2. Make the clipping stances work for short people and 1. nobody should get badly hurt on a climb I've put up. This takes practice and training. The first climbs we put up in the early nineties pretty much sucked. We've gone back and fixed them.

Well said. Those older routes are perfect examples of "pseudo sport" routes: bolted but with serious fall/injury potential that would warrant an R or X if it were a trad route.

John Byrnes wrote:In his last half-dozen posts, Gryption proves he's unable to participate in any type of rational discussion of the issues. I suggest we all ignore him until he drops his Pit bull persona and contributes something constructive.

Now that, John, was funny.
I think he's more choosing not to than incapable... but still.
Do you know how much redbull stings in the sinuses?

DrRockso wrote:Use a stick clip if it's an issue. Recently at a local crag someone added a bolt that to an existing route that made it so you could make the first clip while standing only 2 feet off the deck. (not to mention it was off route, a spinner, the hanger was an anchor hanger with a rap ring on it, and a hardware store tapper/non compression bolt was used) those things aside, if you were clipping the next bolt and fell you would still deck. Sport climbing is supposed to be safe but it's rock climbing not a children's playground. Needless to say this bolt no longer exist.

Not intended to e a slippery slope arguement, as I am totally serious, but if the ethic becomes that any individual is set to judge and fix and established route, lots more of this will happen.
In my estimate, there are many more people who will F with an existing route than there are that will develop new ones, and many of those don't know how to do it.

This is an aside to the arguement about 'qualified' folks doctoring routes, and goes only to my arguement posted a week ago about 'why respect the FA's intent' well, because odds are it is better than the average Joe's, and the FA was there first...

John Byrnes wrote:In his last half-dozen posts, Gryption proves he's unable to participate in any type of rational discussion...

I believe my answer to Alexey’s question was on point. It seems to have satisfied them as they did not have a rebuttal.

gription wrote: I believe my answer to Alexey’s question was on point. It seems to have satisfied them as they did not have a rebuttal.

That's because there's nothing to rebut. My question was related to your motivation for your stated position, and, yes, you HAVE answered that. However, since I cannot relate or understand to the sentiment you've expressed, I don't really see a point in taking it any further. Like I said, to each their own.

I've been following the thread for a bit.

Hey! Some of you posters need to chill.

About 2 hours ago I got a PM from someone who added a bolt to one of my routes. Well... there was a perfect #2 Camalot placement right next to the spot the single bolt was in... And he added intermediate anchor placements between lead-able mixed routes which have chain anchors on them and were already pretty close together. Nice of him to sort of apologize. Frankly I don't care much, though added impact of a now grid bolted area makes it very mass group friendly.

That was a little shocking that someone would go into an area, unlimber the power drill and start adding bolts in an area which had fixed protection without trying to do some reconnaissance and research.

Back to jiind's original post ..."would I add a bolt on a route with a second clip you could deck from if you fell off". NO. Not without the first ascensionist's permission.

There are a number of those style routes around Red Rocks and other places I have climbed which are bold and were done ground up. The other category is climbs which may have been done down top down but are so long in the guidebooks nobody can conceive adding bolts to them. If I can't handle the lead, then I'm staying off or top roping or stick clipping maybe or bringing the "rope gun" till I can.

Would I add a bolt to a route I put up if people asked me to? ...maybe but not always. For me, it has nothing to do with ground up or bolts installed on top rope. Note to me: Red Rocks is the only place I know which has so many bolted anchors/per climber capita.

On the other side of the argument, if a "top down" sport route is done in such a way that you can deck from or above the second or third clip, IMO that is just poor route protection construction; deserves to be publicly criticized.

There are good number of those kinds of sport climbs around Red Rocks ( usually 5.8 to 5.10), where you can deck or hit a ledge if you fall trying to clip #2 or trying to get above that clip. But, I am not going to go around re-configuring someone's poorly protected and trivial sport climb. That starts a war. I stay off those routes and I tell people(beginners) they are dangerous.

Back to Red Rocks and case in point: there is an extremely popular 5.9 multi-pitch route in Red Rocks which was bolted top down. After someone fell off the first pitch between the first and second bolt, breaking an ankle, the route author went back and added a bolt between #1 and #2 to keep people off the ground. He also felt pretty bad someone got hurt on his new line.

Course there are 1000's of routes and plenty of climbable real estate around Las Vegas. If your climbing area is smaller and more compressed you may feel differently. I see in ElDorado(Boulder) climbers are posting polls online for protection changes on established routes. Perhaps some variation of that amongst your climbing community would be the ethical way to address your concerns.

Nice post Thomas. Guess that ends the thread. Know before you go.