SCC Community Forum

How come all those loudmouths from Huntsville wont fess up to what was wrong up there? We ALL saw it. At the walk thourgh it was agreed, and I heard the logic agreed to by both sides, that Sam and Ryan (with their notebooks in hand) would provide the information Wes wants. I'm pretty sure the people I met woulda been all over Ben and Paul if there wasn't anything to clean up. Fairly chickenshit if you ask me. Sort of like the area rep resigning right before the meeting.

If we had found nothing at YB y'all would be on us so hard. Callin us every kind of full-of-shit liar imaginable. But your woman says don't post. So heads in sand it goes! Whatever! It's a bad scene.I hear they've decided to attack SCC leadership now. Sad.

Don't kick a sleeping dog!

Anyway, nice to meet some of you. I was on my way out of the South. Headed towards Wyoming! I'm leaving it with you boys!

No problem Ben, especially since my research consisted of looking at Mountain Project for about 15 minutes. But see how since I was specific with my accusations you were able to quickly determine that I was incorrect? That's how it works - I say there are retro bolts, so I provide the list of what I'm talking about, and then you are able to quickly and easily determine whether or not I'm full of shit. I could have just said "there are a bunch of retro bolts at Steele, maybe like 50% of em, but I ain't gonna tell which ones!" But that's what an 8 year old would do.

Monkey Boy, since not ALL of us saw it, could you please explain what you saw? If you could be as specific as possible, I'd appreciate it.

Guys, Sam and Ryan (and the SCC and their "crack bolting president" and whoever else) are the ones you're accusing of putting in all the offending bolts, right? So presumably they don't really think there's a problem at Yellow Bluff to clean up, right? So why are they the ones responsible for determining what should be cleaned up? Maybe they should be responsible for doing the work, but shouldn't YOU guys be telling THEM which bolts are the most offensive? Or better yet, telling us and everybody else?

Rhett, please stop posting to tell us you're moving to Wyoming. Nobody gives a shit. And as far as I and anybody not at the meeting knows so far, y'all DID find more or less nothing.

When did you guys decide attacking SCC leadership was a bad thing anyhow? Don't you think the SCC is just "a cliquish bro man network of hypocritical posers perpetuating their own existence with other people's money" that wants to bolt the world? It's amazing how quickly y'all went from taking a giant dump on the SCC and all of it's "kumbaya singing" and "kool aid drinkin minions" to acting like y'all are helping it somehow.

And when the hell did we start talking shit about people's girlfriends? How old are you guys?

He didn't say you were incorrect. He said some of the stuff had already been cleaned up and invited you to go help clean up the rest of your list. Do ya wanna help clean it up?

Ben invited me to help to avoid answering my question. Besides, why does Ben need help to chop 10 bolts in his back yard? You guys seemed pretty disappointed that bolts didn't get chopped at YB on the day of the walkthrough. Too slow for you guys. You're clearly men of action. I live 3 hours away. Why wait for me?

And anyhow, I've never even been to Steele, and even if I climbed there regularly I wouldn't be inclined to start a shit storm over a few stray bolts. I just thought it was funny that 15 minutes on Mountain Project could turn up more retro bolts in Ben's back yard than 2 community meetings and a trail day could at Yellow Bluff.

The funny thing about all of this is that I really have NO idea what Yellow Bluff is like. You guys could easily, at any moment, say "Here are 12 confirmed retro bolts we found that will be chopped". I would then have to admit that you guys were right and there is a problem at Yellow Bluff. But the longer we go without any confirmed retro bolts (other than tilt a whirl), the more I suspect somebody is full of it. I just think that somebody should hold the accusers accountable to produce such a list so that everybody reading this can make a more informed decision about what's really going on at Yellow Bluff and who is or is not full of it. I could be absolutely wrong and it would be easy to demonstrate, but so far nobody has.

Why is it that you are so butthurt at Ben...and not the folks holding the list in their hand that could come in here and answer your question?

It's gonna be less than 50%...so You're gonna be able to hammer Ben on that one. But it's gonna be more than just the two bolts on Tilt so that was some bullshit by the Huntsville crew. Are you gonna blast them too? If you're gonna be a hater at least be an equal opportunity hater.

wwes wrote: But the longer we go without any confirmed retro bolts (other than tilt a whirl), the more I suspect somebody is full of it. I just think that somebody should hold the accusers accountable to produce such a list so that everybody reading this can make a more informed decision about what's really going on at Yellow Bluff and who is or is not full of it. I could be absolutely wrong and it would be easy to demonstrate, but so far nobody has.

I know you hate it that we are in agreement but once again, we are. The only difference is that you happen to think it's going to embarrass Ben and I happen to think it's gonna embarrass the Huntsville crew. But I can guarantee you if there had been nothin to clean up they woulda already been in here to gloat and be all over Ben just like you wanna be.

Honestly...you sound like you don't give a shit about any of the ethical issues...you just wanna try to make Ben look bad. It seems personal...and y'all should handle that...cause it's gettin old.

Wes.
It is becoming painfully obvious that you and some of your peers have some sort of deep rooted ignorance and, more troubling, a hatred of the logical.

Please refer all questions about Huntsville to your people there.
I accomplished what I wanted at YB.
I'm just waiting for delivery on an agreement.

I find your list compelling.
Again, I say be patient.

wwes wrote:You guys could easily, at any moment, say "Here are 12 confirmed retro bolts we found that will be chopped". I would then have to admit that you guys were right and there is a problem at Yellow Bluff.

Wes, you need to understand how MP works. We admins get paid by the number of forum pages generated in our areas. If Ben had posted the list that he's so carefully guarding, this thread would have been only one page, and I wouldn't make any money. Rather than see me go hungry, Ben has graciously found excuse after excuse not to post his list, and now we're up to seven pages! With no end in sight!

I'm off to get a nice rare porterhouse and some roasted peregrine with dill sauce. Thanks y'all!

JL

saxfiend wrote: I'm off to get a nice rare porterhouse and some roasted peregrine with dill sauce.

I knew you had a hand in getting Tallulah opened back up.

Saxfiend just won. AND I just got to page 7 for him.

Paul, I promise I hate everybody equally, me included. I don't have people, I belong to no conspiracy. I don't even know Sam and them. According to Ben's links, they're apparently AMGA mountain guide trad guys so they're probably intolerable assholes that I would extra hate. But again, I don't understand why the responsibility to produce that list falls on the accused. If they're actually knowingly, maliciously retro bolting, then they're just gonna lie about it. And if they're not liars or malicious retro bolters, then they at least apparently think Yellow Bluff is fine as is, right? So why should we have to wait to hear what's wrong about the place from them? What sense does that make?

I don't know Ben personally and have nothing personal against him, same for you Paul. I don't hate it at all that we're in agreement, I think we've been in agreement for a lot of this thread. If we ever hang out in person I'll buy the first round and I am certainly not trying to make this personal. But I don't think I'm off base to say that Ben (and others, not all Ben) helped start a shit storm by accusing Huntsville (or whoever) of ruining Yellow Bluff. People have come in here multiple times to thank him for doing so. Therefore, I believe the principal responsibility of explaining just how they ruined it falls on him. Or hell, anybody that's agreeing with him, Ben is just the most visible and "loudest" on the internet. But when asked directly all of Ben's answers have been cute and evasive. I think that's wrong and people should say so. You can't accuse somebody of a crime and then refuse to explain what crime they committed. But then again I am deeply ignorant and have a hatred of the logical. And now it's like you're getting upset with them for not fixing the crime you didn't explain to anybody...? Does that make any sense? Am I crazy?

I also think that if someone makes strong, public accusations and creates an issue about them and then either won't explain what the issue is or turns out to be wrong, someone should give them shit about it. That should be called out so that it's clear that this person is at least exaggerating. Like Rhett said, someone should be on him so hard. For example, the UN foundation was clearly ridiculous and we should say that freaking out on the SCC for that was probably unnecessary. But I'm not calling anybody a full-of-shit liar. Or a bitch, or a chicken shit, or sad, or ignorant, or someone's girlfriend, or whatever. I don't want to embarass anybody. Hell, I may very well be 100% wrong about Yellow Bluff. Somebody just needs to point out that there's been a whole lot of "bolt the world" rhetoric going on in this thread and in general and very little explaining where exactly the world is getting bolted. Yes, I know of a retro bolt or two, but I honestly don't know of too many. And I know a lot of really great trad lines totally free of bolts. So when I ask you guys to name some retro bolts for me, it's partly because I really and truly don't know what you're talking about and it's partly because I smell bullshit. I do understand and care about the ethical issues. Y'all let me know when they bolt Rusty's Crack and I'll bring the pitchforks. I'm just tired of hearing people bitch about ethics and then, when asked directly what they're talking about, tell me that they don't have the time to find all the retro bolts in the world, or that they're not gonna tell me on principle, or that they already accomplished what they wanted, or that I should wait until a meeting and bring my pencil, or that I should refer my questions to some other person, or whatever. Don't just point fingers at others, say "ethics" at me and then refuse to explain.

I hope you get the answers you are looking for. You might try your contacts at the SCC. Surely they have this list...since they own the crag. Hell...why didn't we think of this before? The SCC has to approve the shit....and they have admittedly had transparency issues...surely this isn't going to be another case of keeping some innocuous shit a secret. I'll tell you what...I'll make that request myself in the morning. I'm not gonna do it tonight because I'm gonna give em a little more damn respect than they gave me last night when I got 13 phone calls and multiple text messages back to back to back to back well after midnight because of the butthurt Huntsvillians.

You see when the SCC is doing good work I'll say so and even though I'm tryin to help em if they'll let me...I'm still not afraid to call their asses out when I think they need to be called out. If I can get your answers I'll be sure and post em up. You do the same if you can get anything outta your guy.

Wes, I agree with your point that Ben's case would have been stronger in the beginning if he had provided a list of the retros, at least for those of us not in the know. But apparently there must have been a lot of truth there, because it sure sparked a lot of controversy and action. Since I don't know all the players, would I be correct to assume the guys with the notebooks at the walk through are with the SCC? If so, I think they now have the responsibility to let us know what was determined during the walk through and what the next steps are.

I'm sure these guys have day jobs and families to worry about, so it's not surprising they didn't have notes posted immediately, but it's been a week now, so I don't think it's unreasonable for us to expect some info. Sounds like Paul is going to prod them along today.

And that's a good point.
It has been almost a week, but we have not crossed another weekend.
We met in Huntsville only last Friday and Saturday.
Am I less than pleased to find routes had not been cleaned promptly?
Yes.
Am I upset that it hasn't happened yet?
Not really.
The main issues for me was getting people in my home state to consider the situation....the impact of their actions.
The people we met with do have jobs and responsibilities.
I have not gotten any more specific than the list I provided several pages back because we are still waiting to see what happens.

PATIENCE.

The title of this thread is "SCC Community Forum".
They have been called "emergency meetings", which I still find odd, but there have been tangible results from these "get-together's".

I will recap:

Meeting 1. Chattanooga
It was made known to the SCC that there is an undercurrent of disappointment amongst some of the longtime members/supporters.
Development, accountiability, bolting/management of finite resources was discussed.
Lots of interesting banter over pizza...and I drank Matt's last two PBRs.

Meeting 2. Atlanta.
Several issues were tabled and a couple addressed.
Some people "buried the hatchet" over disappointment/disagreement over Deep Creek.
The Yellow Bluff situation was discussed and I made my onerous, exaggerated, aggravating statement concerning "roughly 50%" of the bolted/mixed lines at Yellow Bluff....more on this in a moment.
Tallulah plan of action and a notification that Scott, Will, Paul, and (believe it or not) Jason, with others, would touch base with the park....subsequently climbing has opened back up.
I had been in discussions with the SCC about Steele between the two meetings....more on that, as well, below.

Meeting 3. Huntsville.
Much discussion about retros, what the locals want at YB, ethical positions opposite the SCC ownership and care-take of the property.
Everyone left mad.

Meeting 3.5. Yellow Bluff.
The Huntsville folks met Kirk/Matt at Y.B. to walk the cliff and discuss the place.
We all left, resigned to the fact that Huntsville gets to do Huntsville, but under the impression that there would be follow up.
Although not radically swift, I remain hopeful that we'll see the cliffline "picked up".
See: patience.

Now, let's talk about Steele if you want to address my "back yard".
Every route you listed, except two, are on Mrs. Osborn's land.
This is the property immediately right of SCC land.
I have asked Mountain Project/Saxfiend (I like roasted peregrine) to take down the routes that are off SCC property...and to update the main Steele page, to no avail.
If I am to stand accused, by all means,I'll address your list.

Dance with the Devil
Dead Reckoning
Hot Steele
Man Overboard
Papillon
Resistoflex
Rockwa
Rustler
Wolverine

Dance with the Devil
COMMENT: This is a legit sport route, albeit off of SCC property.
Location: The right side of the "Cop Out" wall.
DISPOSITION: Needs chopped because it is off of SCC Land.

Dead Reckoning
COMMENT: This is a proud line. Done on gear, it's a sandstone classic testpiece.
Location: 120 feet left of Meathooks wall, 100 yards left of the amphitheater. Recognizable as the route incorporating left one of two twin roof cracks.
DISPOSITION: Needs cleaned up...off of SCC land.

Besides that:

"By bernard
From: birmingham, al
Feb 28, 2012
this route existed for a very long time as a high quality trad route. don't know who added the fixed gear but in my opinion it should be removed and rededicated to another project
Also.....I believe it's longer than 60 feet."

But why is an SCC board member posting about stuff on private property?
I believe Paul has addressed this elsewhere.

Hot Steele
COMMENT: New SCC-provided anchors have been chopped. There is a easy 5.7 slab to the next higher set on Graham's anyway... R/X trad route once the rest is. Off of SCC property.
Location: Grahams Crack area. 5 feet right of Grahams Crack.
DISPOSITION: Needs restored to natural state.

Man Overboard
COMMENT: Retrobolted over old pins. Off of SCC property.
LOCATION: Monopoly face.
DISPOSITION: Needs chopped, badly....

Papillon
COMMENT: Ancient TR route, off of SCC property. Bolted around the time of SCC "opening".
LOCATION: Left of Graham's.
DISPOSITION: Needs returned to natural state.

Resistoflex
COMMENT:Super tall route, hard, was trad. Off of SCC property.
LOCATION:The route is located on the portion of cliff that also holds Dead Reckoning and Banana Route. All of this is 100 yards or so before the ampitheater
DISPOSITION: New bolts need to come out. Fixed gear needs cleaned.

Even these guys, Steele-regulars for a combined 50+ years, disagree.

"By sammy raviv
Dec 4, 2014
Bolt added to upper crux. Less scary now.

By bernard
From: birmingham, al
Dec 7, 2014
began and was for many years a proud trad route."

Rockwa
COMMENT: One bolt replaced old knifeblade. Off of SCC property.
LOCATION: Just right of Meathooks wall.
DISPOSITION: In a perfect world, chop bolt and replace pin....sadly, this is off of SCC land and needs cleaned.

Rustler
COMMENT: Much contention over whether this is a retro or not. It's a decent sport route that resides on property to the left of the SCC boundary.
LOCATION: 100 yards left of the Wolfe Wall.
DISPOSITION: It remains bolted currently.

Wolverine
COMMENT: This is a mixed route on the Wolfe Wall. This is on SCC property and done in reasonable style.
LOCATION: Right of Wolfe Wall-center.
DISPOSITION: Stays.

So, Wes, there you have it.
You issue a complaint, and I have responded.
But riddle me this, why are you highlighting routes that are off of SCC land?
I wish MP would take those routes down so that they were not highlighted so well.
Steele was shut down, totally, once because of people doing exactly that...highlighting the goods that are not technically accessible.

In fact, at Steele, because we have had a candid and open dialogue, there are virtually no onerous routes on SCC land.
The Wolfe Wall has everything a cragger could want.
The Hot Wing Buttress is in good shape.
And the Revelation Wall is perfectly "developed".

The discussion about Y.B., which you still seem so upset about, concerns retro-bolting on SCC land and the stewardship thereof.
The SCC was being lied to by their area rep.
The community status quo was and may remain a little less traditional than some of us would like....but that's their business.
The point was that the SCC's grip on one of their prized Land Trust holdings was slipping and no one over in Alabama seemed interested in pointing that out.

As promised...I just sent this...

"You are receiving this email because you are listed on the SCC website as being either board members or area representatives from the State of Alabama and, as such, one or all of you should be privy to the information I am requesting.

Would any of you care to produce the list of routes at Yellow Bluff that were found during the recent walk through to have had fixed hardware added in violation of the SCC's Anchor Policy, and subsequently determined to require the removal of said fixed hardware ?

FULL DISCLOSURE: I intend to post a copy of this email as well as your response, or lack thereof, on Mountain Project to answer numerous requests for this list.

Regards,

Paul Barnes"

To:

Gus Fontenot...SCC Board Member from Alabama
Michelle Connell...SCC Board Member from Alabama
Micheal Cox...SCC State Rep for the State of Alabama

I will post their reply as soon as I get one...stay tuned.

I know you guys don't believe this, but I think it bears repeating - I am not from or somehow in cahoots with the SCC. I don't have "people" or "contacts" there. I am not a secret government agent. I am not a communist nor do I associate with communist organizations. I am friends with one board member that I don't think has even been to Yellow Bluff. So I know like 1/14 of the board or something. That's my only "guy" at the SCC. I don't think he has much to do with this beyond being one of 14 or so votes if they vote on something. And we're not calling each other up to plot about this. I have no idea what the SCC is doing. Nobody is feeding me secret information guys. If you're getting 13 phone calls after midnight then you're far more involved with the SCC than I ever will be. If I'm ignorant or incorrect about something I did it all by myself, so please hold me responsible for my statements and quit referring to my contacts, my people, and my guy. I'm just reading this thread and I went to one meeting. I asked the accuser to explain his accusations in the place that he me made them. I didn't think that was outrageous.

Bob, in my understanding the guys with the notebooks were not with the SCC, they were Huntsville locals named Sam and Ryan (and I think another guy?). I believe they mentioned in this thread that they don't even care for the SCC that much. Ben accused them, and some others I guess, for being responsible for ruining Yellow Bluff, with approval from the SCC or at least because of the SCC's neglect. Since Sam and Ryan are the locals that put some of the bolts in, they agreed to sit down with the SCC and Ben and whoever else and to chop any routes they had put up that were retro bolts. Before the meeting, nobody had told them or anybody else what exactly was retro bolted. Except for titl a whirl, which was bolted by a dude from Atlanta. I believe Sam said that his offer to chop any retros had stood for 7 years and nobody had taken him up on it. But like I said, I wasn't there, I don't know anybody involved and I could be totally wrong. You're right, there has been a lot of controversy and action, but I'm not so sure that proves that the accusations were true. I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly the controversy and action accomplished besides just being inflammatory, so I'm not yet sure how much truth there was to the accusation. I suspect not much, but I honestly have no idea and could turn out to be totally wrong. I think we deserve to know either way and I'm not sure why we're waiting on the people that supposedly caused the problem in the first place to tell us. Shouldn't the person that pointed out the problem be willing and able to do that?

Ben, I've never been to Steele, I don't know what you're talking about, I don't know any of the routes, which route is on whose land, etc. I'm sure you and your righteous indignation will soon chop every bolt at Steele, I don't really care. If an SCC board member is posting routes on private land, they probably shouldn't be, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't know anything about Bernard or Steele and, like I said, I'm not here to defend the SCC. I only mentioned Steele to prove a point about the Yellow Bluff issue. But your list is absolutely perfect. Surely you can see the irony in the fact that you, overnight, just gave me a detailed list of retro bolts at Steele. I said "there are retro bolts at Steele" and I provided a list along with my accusation. You were then able to address each route in detail and discuss it's history and what you think should happen next. We, or anyone reading this, could now have a constructive conversation about each one of these routes - what needs to happen with each one and why. In contrast, you said "there are retro bolts at Yellow Bluff" (you just repeated "retro bolting on SCC land"), but you did not provide such a list with your accusation. So nobody could actually address any of the routes in question. We can't have a constructive conversation about the retro bolts at Yellow Bluff if we don't know what they are. When I made my accusation, I gave you or anybody reading this the opportunity to research it themselves and debate my accusation. You did not give anybody that opportunity. When you just say "retro bolts at Yellow Bluff and ethics and socialism" and then don't explain, all constructive conversation ends. There's nothing to discuss. It's just an inflammatory accusation. And then it turns into a giant argument where nobody even seems certain what the hell we're arguing about. So my only point is this - if you accuse somebody of something in the future, please try and be more clear so that others can make an independent and more informed decision about just how much they should listen to you.

Thanks for the considered advice Wes.

You got it bro! : D

Sooooo, I've been pretty patient guys. This thread was really going strong with lots of accusations - until the meeting actually happened. Now it's a ghost town. Why so quiet guys?

Is there still no list? Still no retro bolts other than Tilt-a-Whirl? Paul, has your search for a list been fruitful? I believe Ben seemed pretty excited about all the witnesses he was bringing - have any of Yellow Bluff's discoverers commented to anybody about specific routes of theirs that were retro bolted? Were any of Shannon Stegg's routes retro bolted? Anything at all guys?

Two weeks since the meeting and still no retro bolts to speak of. I am an ignorant hater of logic, but this smells like bullshit to me.

wwes wrote:Sooooo, I've been pretty patient guys.

Have you?

wwes wrote:This thread was really going strong with lots of accusations - until the meeting actually happened. Now it's a ghost town. Why so quiet guys?

My opinion: Huntville/Y.B.-regulars felt/feel persecuted, suffered a long debate and longer walk-trhough and appeared to acquiesce at the crag, only to later attack the very people (the SCC) who were there to mediate between them and the rabble-rousers (me/Paul/others).
And now they've gone dark...not honoring their face-to-face agreement.
This speaks to the pressure - the noise - applied in this thread.
If they do not engage, if they do not honor their commitment, I believe I/we have our answer.

wwes wrote:Is there still no list? Still no retro bolts other than Tilt-a-Whirl? Paul, has your search for a list been fruitful? I believe Ben seemed pretty excited about all the witnesses he was bringing - have any of Yellow Bluff's discoverers commented to anybody about specific routes of theirs that were retro bolted? Were any of Shannon Stegg's routes retro bolted? Anything at all guys? Two weeks since the meeting and still no retro bolts to speak of. I am an ignorant hater of logic, but this smells like bullshit to me.

1. There is still no list.

2. Paul has had no reply from any of the SCC's Alabama reps.

3. Yes, some of Stegg's routes were retro'd.
Although Shannon did not "name" routes from BITD, it has been noted (by both sides) that the area has experienced several periods of development/dormancy.
Subsequently, more than one route was sent on gear and later bolted.
Aside from that, your second wave of FA'ers, have made little comment...
Tilt-a-Whirl, as an example, has been named a retro by the FA, yet it remains to be chopped (as far as I know).

So, yessir, there you have it.
A big, steamy pile of bullshit.

One more time:
My greater interest, concerning the state of Alabama, was to illuminate these issues, force the conversation, and hopefully get the mindset modified a bit.
Icing on the cake would have been a dedicated, honest 'clean up' of Y.B. and, perhaps, some other areas.
If it doesn't go that way, even if you and others do not like the tactics, my/Shannon's/others' perspective have been heard by ALL of the necessary players in AL and at the SCC.

Worse than all this banter...
Even with such a lack of "release" for guys like you, Wes...
Will be the outcome if you see us all go dark on the matter.
If the SCC Board continues to consist something like 13 board members, any number of whom are inactive, absent, or weak in their local knowledge, y'all can have 'em, their crags, and their rave party fundraisers.

It should be noted that this was basically a last-ditch effort to align the interests of some of the more senior climbers in the South with those of the SCC....even after many of us have become disenchanted with the execution of "the mission."
If Huntsville remains silent/inactive and the SCC (crag owners) don't push the issue, then I suppose we are all clear on the state of things.
King's Bluff and Castle Rock have suffered similar issues, but I am under the strong impression now, given the seeming outcome at Y.B., that virtually all is lost at any SCC-owned crag once the gym-breeders/retro-bolters take hold.

You are frustrated and I understand why.
I am frustrated because my home state is being desecrated by this, a relatively large and growing user group.
Now that it is becoming clear that the current overseeing organization is either not interested or not able to push better practices, you'll likely see less pressure applied of the public sort.

If you/y'all would like to claim that as a "victory", by all means.
Bro.