Anyone else have this (or a similar) setup for cams? Advantages/Disadvantages?

Just out of curiosity and general discussion, who else has a similar setup? What are some advantages and disadvantages to this setup? Using an extra Oz hood wire and BD nylon runner for a cam. I came up with some advantages and disadvantages for this setup. I would like to hear some more advantages and disadvantages, as well as your preferred setups for trad climbing.

Possible advantages:
- Negates need for another alpine draw/quickdraw somewhere else on the harness, specifically for extending a cam. Weight savings overall...
- Gets rid of the wasted biner that is used to attach the cam to your harness. (I've never intentionally used it, unless I ran out of alpine draws or quickdraws to extend and had to clip directly to pro)
- Nylon runners are cheaper than dyneema or similar products.
- Nylon runner can be used for self rescue situations, and used for friction knots if need be. Something about throwing a nylon runner around a rock/tree for rappel gives me better peace of mind than a dyneema sling.
- Less cam walking. Because the runner is heavier, it should keep the extension down towards the direction of fall.

Possible disadvantages:
- More width, less workability than skinnier dyneema runners.
- Because it's larger, greater possibility of it getting pinched or stuck somewhere
- More $$, per cam.

Thanks!
Kurtis

i never do that. it might make sense if you are doing a short trad route where you need every cam you carry on that climb and youre not carrying any nuts, hexes etc. if you dont need every cam, it means you are carrying extra slings. not so bad on a short route with a partial set of cams but imagine carrying a double rack of cams that way.

if a nut is best to use, you have to be carrying additional alpine draws anyway.

There has been a lot of back and forth on MP about best way to rack your gear. for me, what works best is alpine draws on my harness loops, pro on my gear slings. when doing a chimney or trying to jam my body in an OW, i had troubles when all my pro is on my harness loops. when the pro is on my gear sling, i can "throw" it out of the way. not saying its the best method out there but its best for me.

also, i originally had all nylon runners and have since switched to dyneema. they take up much less space.

Nylon is heavy and bulky and in practice this outweighs all of the theoretical advantages vs dyneema you listed. The last two reasons I would argue aren't even true/relevant.

Leaving your cams permanently racked on alpine draws could work if you need to extend 100% of your placements. This may be true in some climbing areas, espsecially on wandering moderates. But when you're plugging gear up a straight splitter those runners are just in the way.

I think the whole setup will be a cluster on your harness but I haven't tried it so your mileage may vary.

Second what Seth said about red-points. That is the only time I do that, and mostly to reduce weight and clutter.

There are times when I do this, but it's only if I'm climbing something I've projected and know all the pro I'm going to use and what I'm extending versus not. Doing this to all your gear as general principle is probably not the best idea. It clutters up your harness and makes it harder to pull the right cams, because the dangling sling can catch or hook the other cams. It's a bunch of extra weight and you're bringing extra alpines or quickdraws if you place passive pro. Also, for all that you're saving 1 biner per cam which isn't a huge weight savings. Pick up some Nano 22s and you'll barely notice hauling them around.

I tried a similar setup with dyneema slings rigged as alpine draws on each cam. Made an absolute cluster on my rack, so I stopped doing it. I imagine the extra bulk of nylon slings would make an even worse cluster on one's harness. Cams and stoppers on a gear sling, dyneema slings in alpine draws on the harness, a couple super long slings doubled and over my shoulder to build a belay anchor with seems to work best. The reduced bulk of a dyneema sling compared to nylon makes up for a long, long list of theoretical shortcomings, IMO.

I carry more slings than most people think in necessary. I think it's 15, but 5 only have one biner and are for extending cams and the big tricams that are racked separately.

It's gonna be too much stuff getting tangled and too much weight. On a piece-by-piece basis, it seems like a good idea, and if you were only ever using cams it'd be okay, but that's not terribly practical most of the time.

Advantage - it's real pretty

Disadvantage - it says "newbie"

Plus what everyone else said. If you want to place a cam WITHOUT the sling, it's going to be a bit of a PITA to get the sling off the cam-end biner. And you can't leave it there since the rope will run against that nylon, potentially fast and hard (in the event of a fall).

seriously guy's.... it hasent come up yet?!

YER GONNA DIE!

hehe

I used to do this often- using dyneema runners. It worked very well where I used to climb due to the blocky and wandering nature of the routes as almost all placements would get extended. I usually racked a set of BDs .75 to 3 like this and kept separate draws (6-8) for smaller cams and nuts.

It really was faster and easier to plug in the cam and clip without the extra step of clipping a draw-something I welcomed on overhangs and roofs.

I still do it on moderate alpine climbs when I use a minimal rack and want to save weight, and most placements will be extended.

You're missing the green cam...

Very neat idea! But, I would only consider this for a route where I knew I would want to extend every or almost every placement. On routes that are straight lines I wouldn't bother to extend placements (unless the cam is really deep, chance of walking, etc.) since the cam's sling already helps give some freedom of movement. If you are in that situation then by pre-clipping an extender to your racked gear you're just adding a bunch of weight and bulk (and chaos).

Especially imagine a double rack with triples in hands to fists with all those nylon slings....!

Dommelhiemer wrote:You're missing the green cam...

By Kurtis Anderson
Oct 16, 2014
rating: 5.9

A fun pseudo-adventure route for Devil's Head. I mistakenly missed the second pitch anchors and linked the last two pitches with a 60m. Also, because of the linkage, I had to run out the last 4 bolts with 1 draw (borderline Type 3 fun because of some gnarly rope drag). It was just enough for me to get to the top ledge - about 20 feet shy of the top anchors - and get somewhat secured while my belay partner un-anchored and climbed up to the first bolt on the second pitch. That allowed enough rope for me to reach the anchors and rapidly set up a top belay for my partner (although he was already in the first bolt with a draw directly from his belay loop, by the time I reached the anchors). DON'T MISS THE ANCHORS ON THE SECOND PITCH! My partner, admittedly, said he didn't spot the anchors until he was above them, looking down. It would be a fun and safe link with a 70m and enough draws, I'm sure! We elected to walk off the back to the left, took no more than 10-15 minutes to get back to the base of Lost in the Jungle.

All in all, a one and done route for me - although the view of Pike's Peak from the top is hard to duplicate!

It seems that this maybe the experience that made you go the 'slings' way, how about an over the shoulder, gear sling?

On three to five pitch climbs where you exchange the sharp end,
the lead climber and the exchange of the rack often take time, by keeping the rack compact, slings separate from gear, the exchange is likely to go more smoothly. if things get tangled it can be very frustrating.
The climbing in the Gunks, as well as Moore's wall, where climbs traverse and go over roof, and shorter overhangs , a sling on every cam is common.

I sometimes do a variant of this system. I realized that I almost always put a short draw on a cam at the same time I found out that I can get a short QD with 3/4 size biners that weighs almost the same as an old full sized biner. I tend to carry a single run of cams, I only add doubles when I know I'll need them, so the extra clutter on the rack is not bad, and placing/clipping without the extra step of putting in a draw or a runner is sweet!
However, I have not sold any of my climbing partners on the obvious superiority of this system ;-)

First of all, I appreciate the responses everyone! Keep 'em comin.

Secondly, here is some clarification as I made the post before work and was running out of time...

- Nearly all trad routes I climb around CO (Flatirons, South Platte, even CCC) tend to wander, and ideally, almost all pieces should be extended. Rarely would a nut be better than a cam on routes I've climbed; not to say they don't come in handy, and when you have a bomber nut, oooooh that's a good feeling (pun). In this case, I have extra alpine draws that would have been used for cams, etc. The only point to this setup, was to eliminate alpine draws that are pre-determined for cams, or projecting routes as many of you have pointed out, where you already know gear placements and extensions. As for clutter, I've never really had a problem grabbing cams that had draws already on them, but I see your point on this!

- For the setup, I understand that this isn't ideal for all situations, but having pre-clipped extensions is ideal for most of the trad routes I climb here (where I think to myself, "Why didn't I put this extension on the cam before I started? I knew I would extend it anyway!") Obviously, for some place like IC, I wouldn't leave the runners on the cams because it's unnecessary for vertical splitters. Jake, I went to Vedauwoo for the first time a couple weeks ago, and learned the value of gear slings for sure! It surely makes OW THAT much more difficult when cams are getting scraped on rocks. I also learned the valuable lesson of pants and long-sleeve shirts :P I don't think I've ever been more sore from climbing. Woo: 1 Me: 0

But like I said, this setup works for me in most of my trad climbing here where I extend almost all of the gear placed and I have a pretty solid understanding of what gear will be used. It is not a cure all, but it does have its uses. Where you climb dictates how you set up your gear. I should have clarified, apologies! I guess that's the beauty of climbing, there is no perfect way to do it.

P.S.

- I've never been told I have a pretty rack before... I'm not sure how to feel about this.
- The green cams are hiding in a corner somewhere
- As far as matching the colors... Still waiting on a solid prescription for OCD. Wait a second.... I LIVE IN COLORADO!!! Figured it out, guys!

Thanks again!
Kurtis

For your application, the only issue will be weight and bulkiness.

How many cams do you carry?

16 cams (doubles 0.2-3) with 4 extra draws for placements means:
36g for 60 cm BD nylon sling
36g for BD neutrino

16 slings and 24 carabiners:
That's a total of 720g slings + 864g neutrino = 1440g = 3.2 pounds

Compare to carrying alpine draws (I carry 8 alpine draws, and 4 over the shoulder with a single carabiner and I rarely run out of slings).

12 slings and 20 carabineres:
432 g slings + 720 g carabiners = 1152 g = 2.5 pounds

If you don't mind carrying that much extra in slings, then go for it. You're offsetting extra weight vs pumping out from having to pull a sling off your shoulder. You would have to carry the weight on every single move. Or you could work on finding good stances so that you don't pump out when throwing a sling on.

At least switch to dyneema to save some weight and bulkiness.

No. In fact I do the complete opposite. I put more than one CAM each biner so that I don’t have to fiddle around if I pick the wrong cam, I just use the other one that I already grabbed. Also I carry five alpine draws and seven standard quick draws.

gription wrote:No. In fact I do the complete opposite. I put more than one CAM each biner so that I don’t have to fiddle around if I pick the wrong cam, I just use the other one that I already grabbed. Also I carry five alpine draws and seven standard quick draws.

How you carry and sling your gear is a personal preference (just look at the debate over which direction to clip your gear onto the gear loops).

FWIW, I think you should just go out and climb with this set-up for a few days. Keep what you like about it and change what you don't.

I generally carry quick draws on my harness and alpines slings around my neck. That gives 4 possible lengths clipping directly into the cam, cam + quick draw, cam + alpine, cam + alpine fully extended.

Given if you know the route you are climbing you can always adjust your setup based on that. I prefer nylon slings, I just don't trust the others due to their strength wearing out faster and less stretch.