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wwes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

Wait wait wait... what was confirmed as truth? Nobody has answered my very, very simple questions. Still. Here they are again:

How many?

Which ones?

Is "virtually all of the sub 5.10 routes" as specific as we can be now? Do we need another meeting to answer these questions or what? As far as I can tell, Paul, Ben isn't telling us anything. In order for action to be taken, you would first have to identify which routes require action.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

I'm with ya Wes...I'd like to know myself, but I wasn't there. Supposedly there is a list?...but I haven't seen it. Seems to me with the guy that discovered the cliff standing there pointin em out goin "that one, that one, this one over here, etc"...somebody shoulda been on that shit right then right there fixin it. I've heard no suitable explanation for why that didn't happen.

Edited to ask...were there so many that it couldn't all be cleaned up in a day? That would perhaps make a little sense.

wwes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

Hahaha!

I think it makes much more sense that there wasn't that much shit to clean up. Before we get a suitable explanation on why things didn't get chopped, we need to know what things were supposed to get chopped. Am I making sense here?

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
wwes wrote:Wait wait wait... what was confirmed as truth? Nobody has answered my very, very simple questions. Still. Here they are again: How many? Which ones? Is "virtually all of the sub 5.10 routes" as specific as we can be now? Do we need another meeting to answer these questions or what? As far as I can tell, Paul, Ben isn't telling us anything. In order for action to be taken, you would first have to identify which routes require action.
You like to say my name a lot.
I'll admit...it is beginning to irritate me.
I ain't telling you details on principle now.
If you will be a little patient, your organization and the LOCAL COMMUNITY will deal you all the details you want.

Wait for it.
The ball is rolling.
Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Sounds like a bunch of beaurocratic bullshit if ya ask me. I guess the days are gone when somebody woulda jumped right on that shit and anybody that didn't like it woulda had to physically stop it from happenin...somethin at least one local mouthpiece proved he certainly wasn't up for.

Maggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

"The first casualty of emotion is reason"

I can't remember who, but someone quietly said this to me as we stood and watched the meeting. It is a cliché, but he really hit the nail on the head (another cliché for you). Emotions were high as the Huntsville crowd argued, "Why us? YB is not overbolted. We love this place. Why have you come to pick on our community and our crag when there are others with much worse issues? Why has this been exaggerated so much? etc." Emotions were also high when some from out of town argued, "You are responsible for your crag and should have brought this to us. The amount of bolts are unacceptable. Ethics have been lost, bolts have been found. Why would you let this happen? etc." All logic was lost. All patience was lost. No was had open ears, but most people were willing to open their mouths.

I am not here to tell you what is right or wrong. In fact, I am incredibly neutral. I see both perspectives and I cannot figure out my stance. I stand firm with LNT and ethics. I also stand firm with community. I believe that somewhere where LNT, ethics, and community collide, what needs to happen will. But I am not here to tell you what needs to happen. That decision is not a simple one.

What is simple, is that this forum is counterproductive to any kind of solution. Misinformation is sprayed like beta at HP40. I do not personally know everyone who posts here (and I doubt that you do either), so I do not know who I can trust and respect. What I do know is that this forum is filled with inaccuracies, unkind words, accusations, and exaggerations. Every now and then, some truth is spoken, but it is so buried that it is hard to find.

So if you're reading: Just stop.

That's what I'm about to do. After I hit submit, I won't read, post, or care about this forum any more. And I urge you to do the same. There is no way to get the facts here when so much of it is driven by bias and emotion and fear. If you want the facts about YB, go to YB. You won't regret the trip. It is a great crag with varied climbing, a great toilet (with stairs now!), and a welcoming community. But don't take my word for it... I'm probably biased!

To all who came to the meeting from out of town: I enjoyed meeting you and speaking with you. Shannon, I especially enjoyed our conversation at the meeting. I hope you all got to get some climbing in over the weekend.

Thanks for reading. Now go climb and be happy.
Maggie

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Folks want this thread buried, ignored, or taken up on a site they have censorship power over. Yet...thousands of views and more than a few signing up just to make this there only post. Weird.

And to touch on just one point from the previous post...the SCC has every reason to come down hard on the folks that were supposed to be their reps, stewards even, who either committed some of the transgressions, turned a blind eye, or were so inactive that they didn't even notice. Shameful...and probably why one of them quit.

Fact of the matter is...were it not for this thread the status quo would have continued. And that was simply unacceptable. We'll discuss Yellow Bluff some more, I'm sure, then we'll move on to the next SCC crag that has seen abuse when someone who was there before the hordes walks that cliff...and repeat as necessary.

You're Welcome.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30
Timmy M. wrote: The question of style is not sport vs. trad. It is what protection is the best and lowest impact for the climb. Sometimes it is a bolt, sometimes it is a cam, sometimes it is a nut. It might be a great sport route. It might be a great trad route. It might be a great mixed route. The point is to think it through and take the time to do it right. No one is saying chop all bolts but sometimes bolts need to be removed to fix mistakes. Shannon Stegg was there and I got to talk with him one on one. The message I get from him is this: You may need a bit of fixed gear on blank sections to protect a route but don’t cheat yourself out of the full experience by bolting everything that is taking the easy way. I think this is great advice.
I would be remiss if I didn't point out that this is basically the message that we have been harping on all along. While stated in a more palatable way...this, in essence, is a commentary on bolting protectable features and the dumbing down of routes. Just sayin.

I'm awfully glad somebody FINALLY gets it.
Tom Beirne · · Seattle · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 136

There is a lot of positive momentum within southern climbing this month. Democracy is not a spectator sport. Thanks to local voices for instigating. Thanks to the SCC and volunteers for remaining dedicated to finding solutions.

Transparency reduces friction- Timmy M thanks for posting the minutes.
Can a BM or the crag representative (who is this- Ryan, Sam, Tim?) continue to post the minutes or status as it develops? Is there a running estimate on the SCC website that we’re all missing? Recommendation for webmaster / content.

Recap: Is this where we (collective effort) are at?

SCC
-IDENTIFY regional ethics (Draft proposed: JUN15)
-DEVELOP board member program to include roles, personnel management to include accession and terms.
-PROVIDE purpose, standards and coordination of “climbing conservation clinics” to gyms and local leaders.
-DESIGNATE local crag representatives to assist in connecting the SCC with local community

Sounds like the populous is trying to hold leaders accountable, and now that we have momentum, the leaders just need clear and objective feedback.

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

Good synopsis Major Tom.

I don't believe there is a current Rep for Y.B.
That said, I could support any of the three you mentioned taking the position... assuming they follow up as discussed.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

I think that is pretty much spot on, Tom.

An effort is underway to provide the SCC with more local and currently active representation. As a volunteer org good help is, of course, hard to find. There are current board members who are either no longer local, no longer active, or are unwilling to stand up and deal with the tough issues. I believe an effort is underway to remedy this to the extent possible. Board members voting in other board members for life terms is difficult to overcome once they become entrenched and resistant to change. I have seen language in some of the past meeting minutes dating back yrs suggesting defined terms of service that just faded away without being acted upon, for example.

I agree with you that voices need to be heard and I hope more like you who are watching will offer their commentary and suggestions...something I've begged for this entire time in the face of those who have sought to silence this thread.

I'll speak to my area by saying that my good friend who currently holds the position of NE GA rep has life going on right now and we have tossed around a few names to step in and help in his absence, mine included. On that note...I have some good news to report from up this way and that is that Tallulah Gorge is once again open to climbing. We intend to try and set a meeting with the park to further solidify access and discuss how to move forward. Until a rep is formally appointed by the SCC...if anyone has any questions, concerns, or issues that they think need to be addressed regarding Tallulah, Yonah, or Curahee...please PM me through this site and I will make sure they are forwarded to the SCC.

I'll leave the Yellow Bluff specifics to the cats that are doing the work. Supposedly there is a list....maybe they will provide it.

As I understand it there are plans to similarly address Steele, Castle Rock, and Kings Bluff. Anyone with any thoughts on those areas should definitely contact their area rep and/or post up in here or on the SCC message board.

Jgrote · · Fla/nc · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 5
Italic Text
Tom Beirne wrote:There is a lot of positive momentum within southern climbing this month. Democracy is not a spectator sport. Thanks to local voices for instigating. Thanks to the SCC and volunteers for remaining dedicated to finding solutions. Transparency reduces friction- Timmy M thanks for posting the minutes. Can a BM or the crag representative (who is this- Ryan, Sam, Tim?) continue to post the minutes or status as it develops? Is there a running estimate on the SCC website that we’re all missing? Recommendation for webmaster / content. Recap: Is this where we (collective effort) are at? SCC -IDENTIFY regional ethics (Draft proposed: JUN15) -DEVELOP board member program to include roles, personnel management to include accession and terms. -PROVIDE purpose, standards and coordination of “climbing conservation clinics” to gyms and local leaders. -DESIGNATE local crag representatives to assist in connecting the SCC with local community Sounds like the populous is trying to hold leaders accountable, and now that we have momentum, the leaders just need clear and objective feedback.
I knew I liked ol major Tom for a reason! As an out of towner who very much enjoys Alabama crags I couldn't agree more. Just want to chime in and thank Paul and Ben for keeping this issue alive. I'm by no means a local to Alabama, But this thread needs to stay open and people NEED to read it. Preserve history, preserve tradition and most importantly preserve your crag, Hearing things to try and justify putting permadraws in like "the rock was too poor to place bolts near actual climbing so permadraws were installed cause several of the bolts were unreachable". Why even climb it? I'm certainly anxious to see what's done here in the future and see what's done about the so called list. Yellowbluff is not a destination crag by no means, but there is some quality back there and things like new development , any(sport, trad, mixed) should be regulated. That place has been made into sandrock, just not quite as bad, yet. All I hope for if they can't resolve the issue is they keep that bs in Huntsville and away from Steele and NC.
BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
Paul Barnes wrote:On that note...I have some good news to report from up this way and that is that Tallulah Gorge is once again open to climbing. We intend to try and set a meeting with the park to further solidify access and discuss how to move forward.
Good work Will, Paul, etc.
This is as big a victory as anything else we've discussed.
Although few speculated that the peregrine closures would be long-term, there was some legitimate concern about future access.
Thanks for talking with the park.
I hope further talks yield more progress.

And, Jason, don't worry about Steele.
The SCC has stepped up to the plate there lately with better property marking and other responsible actions.
As you know, the place is being continuously improved by a core group of locals...not to mention SCC traildays.
Steele, as a whole, will not succumb to what is (HOPEFULLY) being remedied at Y.B. any time in the near future.
I can guarantee that.
wwes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

Ben, I'm sorry to say your name again, but since you've guaranteed the protection of Steele from the bolt the world mentality, here are a number of routes at Steele with extra bolts/retroactively added bolts/retro bolts/questionable style/wilderness socialism/grabassery:

Dance with the Devil
Dead Reckoning
Hot Steele
Man Overboard
Papillon
Resistoflex
Rockwa
Rustler
Wolverine

See how I listed them, by name, so that you know what I'm talking about Ben? I've even listed them in alphabetical order so that anyone reading this can more easily browse through their history at the Steele Mountain Project page!

Would you say you guys found more or less retro bolts at Yellow Bluff? Nevermind, don't tell me, I don't want you compromising your principles. Hell, I challenge you to name this many retro bolts at Sandrock... Sounds to me like Steele has already been bolted to death.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

I can't address each of those routes but I can tell you that at least a couple of them are routes that I have raised hell about for one or both the following reasons:

1.) Retrobolted
2.) Posted on MP by either an SCC area rep or Board Member even though they are on PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Wes, you were at the meeting and I'm sure you heard me mention this stuff as it goes to the hypocrisy I alleged early on.

I wish the Huntsville crew that was so vocal in this thread would come on in here with that list. I wanna see it too. I do realize that it's gonna be damn hard for em to do that when they pitched such a hissy fit about the whole thing being blown out of proportion over two bolts on Tilt a Whirl. So instead of doing that they send their girlfriends in here to beg folks not to read this anymore. Kinda lame. Especially given that when all is said and done...some of the bolts being removed will have been put in by the very board member who just resigned his post right before the SCC went over there to walk the cliff. That cat knew it all along...and when he got caught with his pants down...he quit.

Stuff like this is why it is crucial that the SCC gets help from the right kind of people. It is also critical that some mentoring is done to educate the next generation of SCC leadership (maybe you?). And that's why term limits are important. There needs to be new blood on the board to learn from those who will term out at some point. I hear it is basically one guy who pitches a damn fit every time the issue of term limits comes up and that's why it never gets acted upon. One guy, who doesn't even climb anymore, holding the board of the SCC hostage and holding up progress because he has something he can hold over their heads. I won't call his name....yet. Suffice it to say that the SCC has some work to do, and some are tryin HARD to get it done while others are fightin it tooth and nail. Who will win out in the end remains to be seen.

I, for one, am doing everything I know how to do to be a catalyst for change...including putting myself out here like this for public scrutiny, hostility, and ridicule, as well as volunteering to rep my area.

wwes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

Paul, I think the hypocrisy is that Ben started a shit storm by publicly accusing people of destroying a crag he doesn't know anything about, when this shit (Steele) is in his backyard. The responsibility of producing a list of retro bolts at YB doesn't fall on Huntsville locals - it falls on the person making all of the accusations. Notice how my accusation came attached with a convenient list so you didn't have to play Sherlock Holmes? Ben pitched the hissy fit about the destruction of history at Yellow Bluff, Ben should provide a list of what the hell he's talking about. Huntsville locals can't discuss particulars if the accuser refuses to divulge any particulars. You told me that you couldn't name any because you didn't have time to search them all out. Ben told me that he won't name any on principle. Both explanations sound ridiculous to adults with critical thinking skills.

I don't know whose girlfriend Maggie is, but she is right - this thread is just a pile of misinformation and vague accusations. There is not a fact to be found here. All I've heard about the meeting in Huntsville was that it was an open forum on the state of Southeastern climbing, you talked about mentoring and history and tradition, blah blah blah - it sounds like y'all are actually pretty good at doing the whole kumbaya thing after all. Wasn't the meeting in Huntsville called because Ben (and others) were raising hell about how Yellow Bluff has been bolted to death? And now those same folks still can't tell us which routes they're talking about? This whole thread is a bunch of platitudes and rhetoric. Ben would have made an excellent politician. And Paul, the SCC didn't try to move this thread over to their message boards because they have the ability to censor it there - they tried to start a discussion on their forum because you guys had just publicly accused them of not doing anything and not being transparent enough. But you guys will never be satisfied. I'm not working for or against the SCC, sport climbing, trad climbing, or bouldering - I just hope to help more people like Maggie realize that this whole thread is a bunch of nonsense.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Wait...so...you wanna see the list, but only if it's Ben that produces it, but then you really don't wanna see anything else in here at all. Is that right?

wwes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

I want to see some substance after reading all this drivel. I want to see concrete examples of what we've been arguing about for weeks. There were two meetings. Still no list. I think the responsibility of producing a list of retro bolts should fall on the shoulders of the person most loudly protesting the retro bolts, yes, so that we can all see to what degree his accusations were bogus or not. Making public accusations and then refusing to explain those accusations is utterly ridiculous to me. Most adults don't say things like "it's bolted to death, retro bolts everywhere, but I won't tell you which ones". However, at this point I'll take the list from anybody. I just think it's funny that you think Huntsville locals should produce the list of routes that Ben has a problem with. Ben said Yellow Bluff has been bolted to death. He said 50% of the bolted routes at YB are retros. Is that true? Which ones? Was Ben correct? Does anybody know? I think that listing the routes at issue is only reasonable after all the discussion here. Then we can go back to saying "history tradition ethics bolt the world wilderness socialism blah blah blah...".

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30
wwes wrote:I think that listing the routes at issue is only reasonable after all the discussion here.
I agree that this is a reasonable request. I wanna see the list of routes that were identified as having had fixed hardware added, what they decided to leave...and why, as well as what they decided to remove...and who was responsible for adding the bolts that subsequently required cleaning up.
BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

Wes,
Thanks for the list.
Steele is ALREADY cleaner than your research would suggest (we have lobbied for MP to fix the database), but there's more...
Can I invite you to come help?
Good help is scarce over here and your assistance would be appreciated.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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