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Fixed anchors

Original Post
djh860 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 110

i just read this around New England this is a difficult subject Bolts get chopped all the time.
accessfund.org/uploads/pdf/…

Nate KSD · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 20

I don't think its that tough of an issue. I think if a group of regulars of a climbing area, whether that be 1 person, 12 people, or 100 people that climb and develop this area regularly, then these people will form a concensus on the type of ethics that should be followed in regards to bolting, to management of vegetation, and other things. And this ethic should be adopted and followed by newcomers as long as possible.

Bolting should always be tasteful according to the ethics of the local area. If some rat comes in for a few weeks and decides to throw down on a drill and a hammer because he saw some totally rad crack that he thinks is better off with bolts, then those bolts should be chopped 99 times out of 100.

I'm not saying that new routes shouldn't get fixed anchors and protection, but if bolts don't get chopped from time to time, then how can you tell if anyone is actually protecting the area?

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
djh860 wrote:i just read this around New England this is a difficult subject Bolts get chopped all the time. accessfund.org/uploads/pdf/…
I'm not exactly sure what specific issue you are meaning to discuss. Your post is not clear.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
djh860 wrote:i just read this around New England this is a difficult subject Bolts get chopped all the time. accessfund.org/uploads/pdf/…
In reading the document you quote, I don't think it is about bolting sport climbs, but for establishing fixed anchors at either the ends of climbs, at the ends of pitches for multi-pitch climbs, or as rap anchors for descents.

When bolts get chopped, it is usually (though not always) climbing bolts rather than anchor bolts that get chopped. The article you quote does not address this topic at all.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
David Gibbs wrote: In reading the document you quote, I don't think it is about bolting sport climbs, but for establishing fixed anchors at either the ends of climbs, at the ends of pitches for multi-pitch climbs, or as rap anchors for descents. When bolts get chopped, it is usually (though not always) climbing bolts rather than anchor bolts that get chopped. The article you quote does not address this topic at all.
It was a general fixed anchor policy position statement, which also gave a definition for "fixed anchors". ("Anchors" was not given a definition limited to belay anchors)

"The purpose of the following joint Access Fund and American Alpine Club Fixed Anchor Policy is to provide the climbing community, partner organizations, community stakeholders, agency officials, and land managers (public and private) with a clear and consistent policy position regarding the placement, maintenance and management of fixed anchors for technical climbing."
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
M Sprague wrote: It was a general fixed anchor policy position statement, which also gave a definition for "fixed anchors". ("Anchors" was not given a definition limited to belay anchors) "The purpose of the following joint Access Fund and American Alpine Club Fixed Anchor Policy is to provide the climbing community, partner organizations, community stakeholders, agency officials, and land managers (public and private) with a clear and consistent policy position regarding the placement, maintenance and management of fixed anchors for technical climbing."
That the definition includes slings as an example suggest either belay or rappel anchors. Almost never is climbing (rather than belay) protection done as a fixed/left sling. But, yes, it could be read as describing any type of fixed protection, rather than just belay/rappel anchors.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
David Gibbs wrote: That the definition includes slings as an example suggest either belay or rappel anchors. Almost never is climbing (rather than belay) protection done as a fixed/left sling. But, yes, it could be read as describing any type of fixed protection, rather than just belay/rappel anchors.
I only continue because I am interested in logic, but including slings in the list of examples does not suggest they are speaking exclusively about belay anchors at all, particularly in the context of the sentence below.
"Fixed anchors are defined as climbing equipment (e.g., bolts, pitons or slings) left in place to facilitate ascent or descent of technical terrain"
The logical construct you are making is faulty here.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

"Fixed anchors can be strategically placed to minimize climbing related biophysical impacts that can occur to fragile soils, vegetation, and wildlife. This value is sacrificed if any use of fixed anchors is prohibited."

I'll confess I felt embarrassed as a climber when I read the above ... as though we are stretching really hard to justify bolts. But I guess bolts could be used to provide a way to bypass tromping up sloping dirt with veg.

Is that what the above quote is about? And how do bolts help wildlife?

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

it prevents rapping off trees which can eventually kill em

of course out here in squamish trees are weeds in the temperate rain forest we climb in ... they grow back in a few years anyways ... so no one gives a fcuk

;)

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

I could simply not be aware enough ... I haven't seen climb-related tree destruction in over a decade of climbing in a wilderness area. Then again, most times we don't see other climbing parties.

So how are the trees being killed? Pulling ropes after rap when rope is just wrapped around the trunk? Repeated top rope loading?

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Bill Lawry wrote:I could simply not be aware enough ... I haven't seen climb-related tree destruction in over a decade of climbing in a wilderness area. Then again, most times we don't see other climbing parties. So how are the trees being killed? Pulling ropes after rap when rope is just wrapped around the trunk? Repeated top rope loading?
Around here (Gunks) it's the foot traffic (and resulting soil compaction) over the roots that kills the tree. Trees at the base of the cliff here die as fast, if not faster/more frequently, than rap trees on the cliff.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

The constant pulling of the rope around trees can stip the bark at that area ....

Rap Bolts "save" trees

But like i said in squamish trees are weeds anyways

;)

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
bearbreeder wrote: But like i said in squamish trees are weeds anyways ;)
great attitude to spread around!
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
T Roper wrote: great attitude to spread around!
You dont climb up here

Pick up the mclanes guide book sometime and see the loss of climbs to the relentless growth of vegetation

Most climbers up here are in favor of some thinning of the trees that have sprung up in the last few years decades

Fires used to take care of it in the past ... But with fire supression these days (which is against nature) the rock in squamish is more forested than a century ago when there was no rock climbing

But like i said u dun live or climb here

;)
Nate KSD · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 20
bearbreeder wrote: You dont climb up here Pick up the mclanes guide book sometime and see the loss of climbs to the relentless growth of vegetation Most climbers up here are in favor of some thinning of the trees that have sprung up in the last few years decades Fires used to take care of it in the past ... But with fire supression these days (which is against nature) the rock in squamish is more forested than a century ago when there was no rock climbing But like i said u dun live or climb here ;)
Reminder that the majority of wildfires in recent history are all caused by human ignorance. If the forest itself doesn't spontaneously combust than the forest is in its natural, self regulating state. A forest in its natural mature state can actually yield a much slower and more easily contained fire, because over a longer period large trees and timber will eventually dominate the landscape, preventing brush and smaller vegetation to carpet the landscape which is actually a much more dangerous scenario than having a thick mature forest with alot of large timber.

Also, please explain to me how "CLimbs have been lost to vegetation"? Down here we have so much bush we're used to our shins bleeding at the end of the day, nothing to complain about if it keeps the impact down...
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Nate KSD wrote: Reminder that the majority of wildfires in recent history are all caused by human ignorance. If the forest itself doesn't spontaneously combust than the forest is in its natural, self regulating state. A forest in its natural mature state can actually yield a much slower and more easily contained fire, because over a longer period large trees and timber will eventually dominate the landscape, preventing brush and smaller vegetation to carpet the landscape which is actually a much more dangerous scenario than having a thick mature forest with alot of large timber. Also, please explain to me how "CLimbs have been lost to vegetation"? Down here we have so much bush we're used to our shins bleeding at the end of the day, nothing to complain about if it keeps the impact down...
No one up here is choping down old growth trees to develop climbs or trails ... The trees being chopped ate new growth that are still young ...

Squamish right now is the most forested it has ever been in photgraphic history ... Because the growth is no unchecked due to fire supression ...

About 40 years ago a fire went through the smoke bluffs ... All the tree growth you see since then are new growth, if unchecked you simply wont have much exposes rock left

These days with houses and businesses right bu and inside parks ... A fire would never be allowed to keep burning

Our hydro company is VERY aware of this ... And every so many years they chop down all the trees around their powerlines ... Many of which are quite close to climbs and in the parks

There are TONS of climbs that were FAed decades ago which have been lost to the forest

If a climbs doesnt see many ascents ... In a few years there will be moss and schrubs ... And a fee decades actual trees growing out of the cracks

Perhaps the most popular multi in squamish right now is a recleaned old aid line where a lot of gardening was done

To be absolutely blunt ... Many folks down south dont understand how much gardening and digging goes into make the famous squamish moderate cracks nice and clean

They run up all the classic moderate multis and crags and think it was always that way .. Then they get outraged when someone tells em trees got ripped out for their climbing pleasure ... Yet they keep climbing those same moderates

If you ever want to appreciate the shiet it takes to clean even a lowly easy hand crack at a crag out here ... Just pick up a brush and pickaxe, and help rescrub old grown over climbs ... Chances are youll need a saw as well

If you want to read more about it ...

gripped.com/articles/the-fi…

gripped.com/articles/the-di…

Down here the rock doesn clean or stay clean an unvegetated by itself
Nate KSD · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 20
bearbreeder wrote: No one up here is choping down old growth trees to develop climbs or trails ... The trees being chopped ate new growth that are still young ... Squamish right now is the most forested it has ever been in photgraphic history ... Because the growth is no unchecked due to fire supression ... About 40 years ago a fire went through the smoke bluffs ... All the tree growth you see since then are new growth, if unchecked you simply wont have much exposes rock left These days with houses and businesses right bu and inside parks ... A fire would never be allowed to keep burning Our hydro company is VERY aware of this ... And every so many years they chop down all the trees around their powerlines ... Many of which are quite close to climbs and in the parks There are TONS of climbs that were FAed decades ago which have been to the forest If a climbs doesnt see many ascents ... In a few years there will be moss and schrubs ... And a fee decades actual trees growing out of the cracks Perhaps the most popular multi in squamish right now is a recleaned old aid line where a lot of gardening was done To be absolutely blunt ... Many folks down south dont understand how much gardening and digging goes into make the famous squamish moderate cracks nice and clean They run up all the classic moderate multis and crags and think it was always that way .. Then they get outraged when someone tells em trees got ripped out for their climbing pleasure ... Yet they keep climbing those same moderates If you ever want to appreciate the shiet it takes to clean even a lowly easy hand crack at a crag out here ... Just pick up a brush and pickaxe, and help rescrub old grown over climbs ... Chances are youll need a saw as well If you want to read more about it ... gripped.com/articles/the-fi… gripped.com/articles/the-di… Down here the rock doesn clean or stay clean an unvegetated by itself
That, unfortunately, will be the fate of many great climbs and for a myriad of reasons. But I think it just boils down to what appeals to the masses and the new crowd, and how much adventure they're up for, and as far as im concerned the majority of new climbers are gym climbers and I would say that most gym climbers are not interested in bushwacking.

Simply put if its not "tasteful" then it probably won't see many ascents per season and will be overgrown eventually. I can't say its necessarily a bad thing. Maybe bad for you and me, because it might be the type of climbing that we need to keep up our game or get to a new level and prepare for tougher stuff later on.

I can definitely say the same is happening down here in areas that feature some really good climbing. They're simply too far out of the way, or require a bit too much adventure and for the most part, only about 1% of people that go outside will even go to places like these. Even some rock that has some aluring shapes have some pretty heavy weathering to the degree that when you put your foot on a boulder the surface just turns to a gritty sand and then you have to wipe your shoes off and try again.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

The difference is that up here .. A climb that has a 10 min aporoach wont get climbed unless its basically spotless with a nice trail and well manicured cracks and a clear base

Theres been enough mossed over climbs and recleans to prove it

While one can go on and on about the "sanctity" of trees .. The reality is that unless a decent number of climbs and crags get cleaned/recleaned out here ... The crowds will get worse and worse

There are an increasing number of new climbers and visiting climbers in squamish year after year

Without these new/recleaned climbs the line up and top rope gongshows would be MUCH worse than they already are

While ive seen folks rant online about it (most of which dont climb or live here) ... Ive never heard one person whos climbed those new/recleaned ones complain thts it was scrubbed

For those who cant bear the though of climbing lines where trees were ripped out and sawed off ... I can list a few overgrown mossed over tree infested filled up cracks that you can go do ... I suggest avoiding almost every popular moderate crack climb out here as at some point in the climb shrubs, roots and trees got killed in the cleaning process

Youll enjoy the "real" and "original" squamish experience of a vertical bushwack

;)

Nate KSD · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 20
You call that "Cleaning"? I thought that was referred to as "Deep bush soloing!"
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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