Mountain Project Logo

Jugging vs Re-aiding Angled Cracks?

Original Post
Evan Urton · · Berkeley, CA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

New to aid climbing and fresh off my first wall (SF of Washington Column). It went well with the exception of the clusterf*** on the pitch and a half after the Kor Roof.

I jugged the rope while cleaning that slanted crack and had a hell of a time cleaning. Every time I passed the top ascender and weighted the next piece the bottom ascender was pulled hard into the last piece and could not be passed. Much cursing and shenanigans ultimately prevailed, but it wasn't pretty. My leader did not backclean.

Is there a technique I'm missing, or is that pitch just best re-aided? Thanks for any help!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Evan Urton wrote:New to aid climbing and fresh off my first wall (SF of Washington Column). It went well with the exception of the clusterf*** on the pitch and a half after the Kor Roof. I jugged the rope while cleaning that slanted crack and had a hell of a time cleaning. Every time I passed the top ascender and weighted the next piece the bottom ascender was pulled hard into the last piece and could not be passed. Much cursing and shenanigans ultimately prevailed, but it wasn't pretty. My leader did not backclean. Is there a technique I'm missing, or is that pitch just best re-aided? Thanks for any help!
Yes, there is a technique you are missing. I recall when I went up Skull Queens we waited on the ledge for about four hours while the party above us tried to clean the Kor Roof.... While that pitch is probably easier to lead than to follow, it's still quicker to jug than to follow on aid if you have your technique down. The reason why your bottom jug is being sucked into the piece is because you are not extending the rope between the piece and your bottom jug.

Basically, when you transfer your top jug over the piece, you need to grab the rope below the piece and hold it with your hand so you dont suck the bottom jug into the piece. Then push the bottom jug down the rope so there is more distance between your bottom jug and the piece. Weight the top jug fully and then unclip the rope from the piece.

As long as the bottom jug is touching the piece you wont be able to unclip the rope, so just push the bottom jug further down the rope so you have more rope to work with.
Evan Urton · · Berkeley, CA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

That...makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

FWIW, I'm not much of a wall climber. I made it up to the pitch after kor before we bailed (partner had to leave the valley). That was my only wall experience.

What I think I was doing was using a grigri below the aiders. Get to the piece, get all the weight on the grigri, pass the jugs, lower out using the grigri, then reach over and clean the piece.

Lather, Rinse, repeat.

Marnix · · Amsterdam · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 0

+above. Use one jug up top and a grigri. Pass the piece with the jug and use the grigri to mini lower off each piece onto the aider above. Then reach over and clean the piece and pull up grigri slack. Switch back to two jugs when it gets vertical. PTPP has a good detail on this technique

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

Using the one jug+gri-gri method has the added bonus that you can't come completely unclipped from the rope, which is a definite concern on traversing/angling lines using two jugs.

Plenty of people have died or taken huge falls to their backup knot or to their tie-in when both jugs ended up off the rope (typically when passing a piece, so one is already off and the other is loaded at an funky angle prying the rope out of the jug). You can use biners in the jug - one in the round hole up top, one around the handle and rope - to prevent it, but it's a bit of a PITA, and I tend to tie way more backup knots for piece of mind when using two jugs (vs. having a grigri on the bottom).

Evan Urton · · Berkeley, CA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

Thank you for the tips, I'll try out all those methods and see what feel right.

One question: Does weighting the Gri-gri make it difficult to open the ascenders? I was under the impression that the rope couldn't be taut while opening.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

>"Does weighting the Gri-gri make it difficult to open the ascenders? I was under the impression that the rope couldn't be taut while opening."

The rope can be tight when opening, but the jugs can't be weighted. If a jug becomes difficult to remove, sometimes pushing it up a fraction of an inch before you try and open it. This pulls the teeth out of the rope.

Crotch Robbins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2003 · Points: 277

Agree with the one jug, one gri-gri lowerout for following traversing, roofy aid pitches.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

On a side note, you should always have your GriGri attached to the rope while jugging! Do not rely on your ascenders alone. There are times where you are disconnecting your top ascender to pass a piece, and during that time you are in essence only clipped to the rope via one ascender and your end knot. Some people tie in short as they go, which works, but using the GriGri as a backup is the best option for a number of reasons.

Marnix · · Amsterdam · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 0
20 kN wrote:On a side note, you should always have your GriGri attached to the rope while jugging! Do not rely on your ascenders alone. There are times where you are disconnecting your top ascender to pass a piece, and during that time you are in essence only clipped to the rope via one ascender and your end knot. Some people tie in short as they go, which works, but using the GriGri as a backup is the best option for a number of reasons.
I think this is a good approach for leaning pitches where the ascenders will be weighted awkwardly or where you will be lowering out, but on a straight pitches it is faster and easier to throw a backup knot in every 15 feet than to haul that line through the gri-gri constantly. Also on plumb pitches the ascender is less likely to be popped off the rope and you can often remove the piece without even passing. Definitely always tie knots in either case - though when the gri-gri is on it is more for rope management
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Marnix wrote: , but on a straight pitches it is faster and easier to throw a backup knot in every 15 feet than to haul that line through the gri-gri constantly.
I find it is significantly faster to use the GriGri. It takes seconds to put on and you dont really need to feed anything through the GriGri once you got some rope hanging down. After the first 30' or so, there is usually enough rope hanging down for the GriGri to feed automatically. As far as the first 30' goes, I can get that through the GriGri in about 10 - 15 seconds, which is far faster than tying several knots over the course of the pitch.

The other bonus is you have the GriGri ready for use at any time, and it's useful quite often. I dont know how many times the bag got stuck on a flake and I had to quickly rap down and over to fix it. If I was using knots I would have to untie them all, put the GriGri on, swing over, then take the GriGri back off and retie the knots.

But that's what works for me. Aid is a sport in which there are many ways to do the same thing, and everyone has something different, which is fine.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

I agree. A Grigri is a great device for ascending. I generally don't belay with a grigri, but god damn they can make ascending safe and easy.

Mind you I have only aid climbed once, so take or leave my advice. But it was this. The second certainly didn't jug the roof pitch! :-)


(A little, shameless self promotion)

mountainproject.com/v/passp…
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Holy crap...I just did Leaning Tower this weekend and it was hot, I can't imagine how warm it was on WC!

Evan Urton · · Berkeley, CA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

It was somewhere between miserable and very miserable. Psyched to do it again next weekend!

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Go do LT. Start real early. It is in the shade until about 2:00. Hang out on Ahwahnee ledge under a strung out bedsheet or umbrella until about 5:00 pm and then fix the next couple pitches. Then fire the rest in the shade of the next day! Worked for us.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

With a little practice you should be able to easily switch between 2-ascender jugging with gr-gri for backup to 1 jug with gri-gri for the angled sections of pitches.

Re-aiding the pitch (or section of a pitch) is best when things are just about horizontal (P5 of WFLT, Planck's Constant roof, P11 of Mideast Crisis, etc).

Peter Zabrok · · Hamilton, ON · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 645
"Every time I passed the top ascender and weighted the next piece the bottom ascender was pulled hard into the last piece and could not be passed. Much cursing and shenanigans ultimately prevailed, but it wasn't pretty. My leader did not backclean.

Is there a technique I'm missing,"


Hell, yeah - right here on this very forum:

mountainproject.com/v/the-b…

This post talks about using your Grigri as an ascender, which easily solves the problem you describe above.

The Grigri works great when you are cleaning steep/overhanging/slanting/zig-zagging pitches. If you find your feet dangling in space, add a DMM Revolver onto your upper jug to make up a 2:1 body hoist setup. It's all explained in the link above. Someone bump it, please.

You can clean faster on jugs if the pitch is fairly plumb, which can often be the case on easy routes like The Nose or The Prow. But aid pitches by their very nature are steep and slanting, so it's often the Better Way to use a Grigri.

Cheers, eh?
Pete aka "Dr. Piton"
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Evan, just to add to 20kN's first reply.
As you start to weight the top ascender after you have placed it above the piece to be cleaned you hold the rope below the bottom jug with one hand and simultaneously release the teeth of the lower jug and let the rope slide through your hand. i.e you lower yourself out as you weight the top jug. The lower jug stays in the same place in space, but the rope runs through it. This takes a little practice.

This is worth getting sorted for the not-so-steep pitches. Using a grigri is as other have said great on the steep stuff.

I think there is a video of Chris Mac cleaning the great roof on just jugs that someone might be able to point you at.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
Post a Reply to "Jugging vs Re-aiding Angled Cracks?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.