Mountain Project Logo

Adam Ondra: "Any climber with mediocre stregnth can climb at least V8 given perfect technique" Thoughts?

Mark Wilson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

Seems sortof arbitrary, using the grade "V8." What is significant about that grade? Also what is "mediocre strength?" To AA, maybe that is someone who "only" trains 4 days a week and sport climbs 13+....

JohnWesely Wesely · · Lander · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 585
Ana Tine wrote:Along the same lines people who say it's ALL about mental strength not physical are basically telling you that you have weak mental character if you can't climb hard. The mind is important to maximize what we have to work with, but we live in a world where the laws of physics apply.
Mental strength allows you to push yourself and develop physical strength.
JohnWesely Wesely · · Lander · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 585

I would consider myself a climber with mediocre/ sub mediocre strength, never going to hold that small crimp on the moonboard for a second, 4 % body fat but no six pack, maybe I could do 25 pushups? etc etc. When I succeed on a route/ boulder it is because I figured out a way to use what little strength I do have to its potential.

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
Nivel Egres wrote: Out of curiosity, how would you differentiate "bouldering technique" from general climbing technque? IMO bouldering technique is distinguished by paying more attention to body positioning and good feel for momentum (not just dynos, but use of momentum). You kinda see a girl/guy on a route and say "oh, she's a boulderer, you can see it by the way she moves".
Climbing friend egres,

On climbing rocks of boulder type, you use crushing grip of iron fist, and dancing feet of steel laser type, and the heel hooking, myah?

On climbing rocks of climbing sport type, you use more grip mighty oak endurance style, myah? I think yes, myah?
Muscrat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 3,625

Synonyms:
ordinary, average, middling, middle-of-the-road, uninspired, undistinguished, indifferent, unexceptional, unexciting, unremarkable, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian, prosaic, lackluster, forgettable, amateur, amateurish;
If we take the median of boulder problems (1/15= 7.5) then he speaks truth, V8 is the median boulder, so those of us who suck can do at least V8.
Routes?: Wellllll.... depends on how you parse it, but if we take 5.1-5.15 we should all be doing.... 5.8??! Hmmmm...i always did suck at statistix.
Whatever, and according to Sasha, we should all warm up on 5.12. And have a S.A.T. score of 1599. Whatever.
Locker?

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Maybe the V5+ problems where he climbs are different than the way the grade them around where i live. I have climbed most of the V5s where i live and yes there are some extremely beta intense problems that will feel impossible if you don't climb it right, but that doesn't mean that with the perfect technique they don't involve some pure strength requirement, either overhanging 4th inch sloppy crimp or compression controlled move on overhanging rock controlling swing / barn door.

I normally have to spend at least a day working on most V5 problems but than I have ran into and on sighted some before. So the question is it really a V5 problem or not? If 95% of V5 problems require 5+ hours of work and I can walk up to a V5 problem and send it is it really a V5 problem? Maybe I need to find that V0 problem with that 1 short V8 move and it could go down easy right?

Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186

I have no doubt that if Ondra quit climbing today and didn't climb for 10 years but still had a healthy diet he could still flash V8.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
reboot wrote:How many of the doubters here actually boulder on a regular basis? Just because you've spent the last N years climbing routes does not mean you even have the more rudimental bouldering techniques. Fact is good bouldering technique is pretty rare & I've not seen many (grown-ups) who can't boulder V8 possess what I'd consider good bouldering techniques (the few exceptions include a guy who was probably 30 lbs overweight but still had the grace of a ballerina). Yes, a lot of route climbers know how to find good rests, get into certain body positions, and even have decent lock-off strength, but they lack the movement quality of a kid that has been climbing for less than a year.
i guess i can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with him (ondra). i spend quite a bit of time bouldering in the gym (at gyms where there are probably a fair number of boulderers who are above average). i spend a LOT of time watching other people boulder, and i would say that the average fairly serious boulderer probably climbs in the V4-V6 range. some are strong and don't appear to have great technique. some aren't that strong but you can tell they are pretty dialed technically. some are in the middle on both categories.

one thing that i think ondra sort of glosses over is the fact that technique is very entwined with strength. it is very entwined with flexability. it is very entwined with body dimensions. it is very entwined with mental fortitude. etc. one of the above posters mentioned pratt's quote about how much easier it is to climb with good technique if you are strong. anybody who has worked eliminate style problems with bad feet, starting with good hands and progressing to more difficult hands knows this.

it's easy to use the broad label of poor technique to describe someones inability to do a problem, but that might not be the entire issue. for example, take a very high step up move on an almost vertical face with bad hand holds. a person with extremely strong legs might do this easily. a person with weak legs may not be able to do it - we don't really know if it is a strength issue or a technique issue? what about a person who is able to complete the move, but he 'taps' his lower foot up the wall as he is doing it? some might say he has poor technique? maybe he knows that using his low foot to create torque about his hips and thus keep his upper body closer to the rock is the best way for him to do it? in this case i would say he has good technique.

same goes with really long moves for short climbers to do static, versus full dyno. dyno is probably better technique here, but if they don't have the strength to initiate the move and latch the hold it will be a moot point.

same goes with very core intensive problems for a tall person. or burly shoulder moves for someone with bad shoulders. or thin cracks for folks with big hands. etc.

the overall picture is just way too complicated to make a blanket statement like 'any climber with mediocre finger strength can climb V8 with good technique'.

what exactly is mediocre finger strength? what exactly is good technique?
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

Slim,

Bouldering in the gym doesn't count. Do you boulder outside much? I disagree that the average fairly serious boulder climbs V4-6. I've climbed with plenty of fairly serious boulderers that were consistently getting into the V8-10 range and they weren't doing any training.

I spent years of trad climbing in the 11 range and the occasional 12- sport which compared to bouldering grades is fairly mediocre. I was able to work up to V9 bouldering within a few months when I did it consistently and I didn't train for it. The climbs I did well on were very technical and rarely very steep.

I think personal style and repetition have a lot to do with it. Just repetition can get you up a problem that you couldn't even do one move on within a day, if you have good technique.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Tim Lutz wrote:... clueless Ayn Rand figure...
Never heard this applied to Rand before. Her followers more than once but never her. And I agree with the premiss of the OP to a point. But as a technical climber that lacks power and loves runout slab I can say that in my experience the difference between onsighting 5.11a and failing to redpoint 5.10c is about 20 lbs. So to me it's not a power problem it's a power to weight problem and ounces matter. I posses pretty good footwork and at my weight I'd say I'm maxed out in the low 5.11 range. I just don't have the finger stregnth to pull my fat ass up anything harder than 5.11c at the moment, even slab, forget about overhangs and hard lie-backs.
Nick Grant · · Tamworth, NH · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 424

How about a seventy-five-year-old climber? Could she?

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Nick Grant wrote:How about a seventy-five-year-old climber? Could she?
Many of the folks I climb with are over 50 but I think over seventy is out of bounds for V8...
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Long Duk Dong wrote:Slim, Bouldering in the gym doesn't count. Do you boulder outside much? I disagree that the average fairly serious boulder climbs V4-6. I've climbed with plenty of fairly serious boulderers that were consistently getting into the V8-10 range and they weren't doing any training. I spent years of trad climbing in the 11 range and the occasional 12- sport which compared to bouldering grades is fairly mediocre. I was able to work up to V9 bouldering within a few months when I did it consistently and I didn't train for it. The climbs I did well on were very technical and rarely very steep. I think personal style and repetition have a lot to do with it. Just repetition can get you up a problem that you couldn't even do one move on within a day, if you have good technique.
a fair point about bouldering in the gym vs outside. it has been a really, really long time since i bouldered outside (i just can't take the landings any more).

for the harder problems that you have done, were they the body-awareness-genius type of problems, or trick beta type, etc?

good point also about repetition - i am always amazed at how impossible something feels the first time, and how effortless it feels when you really nail it.

i also have several partners who don't train at all, and they can literally go a year without climbing and they will still always climb harder than i do. i don't really consider them to be 'average' though. they have 'the knack', and they are naturally just very strong.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
gription wrote: I posses pretty good footwork and at my weight I'd say I'm maxed out in the low 5.11 range. I just don't have the finger stregnth to pull my fat ass up anything harder than 5.11c at the moment, even slab, forget about overhangs and hard lie-backs.
one thing that i find interesting is that there is a very big difference between footwork and legwork. i think most people who climb with me would say that my footwork is very good, but my legwork isn't so hot.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
slim wrote: i spend a LOT of time watching other people boulder, and i would say that the average fairly serious boulderer probably climbs in the V4-V6 range. some are strong and don't appear to have great technique. some aren't that strong but you can tell they are pretty dialed technically.
I obviously haven't spent nearly as much time in your local gym...but I would say that some of the ones bouldering in that range are technically sound climbers: they understand body position, center of gravity, etc, but I've rarely seen one that have mastered complex and/or dynamic movements/body control/fluidity like a top level boulderer. I certainly haven't.

slim wrote:one thing that i think ondra sort of glosses over is the fact that technique is very entwined with strength. it is very entwined with flexability. it is very entwined with body dimensions.
Technique does not exist in absence of all those things, and yes, there is not a single technical sequence for everyone. Still, strength and flexibility are things one can improve upon. Climbers are pretty notorious at having certain strength deficiencies that can be easily addressed. As for power, for someone coming from a martial arts background, I firmly believe it takes a lot of technique (of timing, coordination beyond mere muscle fiber recruitment). To say someone is not very powerful is usually a testament that person has not mastered the technique of generating power for a specific movement rather than any inherent physical deficiency.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
slim wrote: good point also about repetition - i am always amazed at how impossible something feels the first time, and how effortless it feels when you really nail it.
What do you think is happening with repetition? That you are getting stronger? Maybe eventually, but mostly you are perfecting a particular movement pattern, which is technique.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

but keep in mind, we are basically talking about an average person here. the folks you climb with, as well as yourself, are not average people. (don't make me post the photo of you planking on half pad ring finger monos :)

repetition helps a lot - but if you aren't strong enough to make any sort of headway towards making the moves, you are dead in the water.

i guess it ultimately probably comes down to finding the absolute perfect problem for the person - but i don't think this is what ondra is saying.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
slim wrote:i guess it ultimately probably comes down to finding the absolute perfect problem for the person - but i don't think this is what ondra is saying.
Who knows what Ondra is thinking. I don't think one has to find the perfect problem; my strength affects my body type, so I've adopted certain (subtle) techniques to neutralize when that's a disadvantage. But a lot of things I just have to get better at, and I constantly learn stuff from people that are not as strong as me. I think most people have a lot they can get better at (besides getting super strong) than they realize...
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
slim wrote: ...my footwork is very good, but my legwork isn't so hot.
huh?
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
gription wrote: huh?
Foot work is mainly placement for support...legs have big muscles for movement...
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Bouldering
Post a Reply to "Adam Ondra: "Any climber with mediocre stregnth…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.