Training your body to need less water?

I'm training my climbing skills, aiding techniques, and rope work for attempts at NIAD and RNWF of HD this fall. A big obstacle for me on grade IV and V climbs has been the amount of water I need.

I've been unsuccessful in finding much on the Google about if it is practical and/or safe to train your body to require less water.

I would say a big "NO", do not do this. It is basically what I did for 15 years and I ended up with 2 kidney stones that I attribute to chronic dehydration (does not run in the family). I was very proud of my ability to not need much water and going on little water really suited me. I always thought of it training too. It might also be a major contributing factor in myofascial problems that have have to this day. Do not do this unless you like severe pain.

instead of focusing on needing less water, learn how to use less. Ration your water, so drink when you need water and not when your tired, be active in cool weather and rest during the hottest part of the day, buy water wicking clothing to help keep you cool, and then buy and use a neck gater if you are in a dry climate you will loose a lot less water to breathing.

If you know the right someone have a medic give you a liter or two of IV fluids before your NIAD attempt. Or just hydrate for three days to set you up for success. David is right, chronic dehydration is really bad for your kidneys and tissues. From a medics point of view start well hydrated and drink often BEFORE you are thirsty. And follow David's ideas. My $0.02. Good luck.

I remember hearing about a military study done in the 50s that tried to examine if this was possible (can't find any literature unfortunately). From what I recall, it was extremely unsuccessful and led to a lot of hospitalized soldiers. The findings were basically that you can't train your body to utilize less water, all things considered equal. What you can do is train. Less body fat equals less use of water. Rationing water is also not a good idea, as indicated by the health consequences on kidneys, and it also leads to poor performance. By using less water your ability to climb will be severely diminished. It appears that by drinking an adequate amount, your body's ability to carry the required H20 will be increased, so that the added weight is proportional to your increased performance. I found this article, and it was very informative.

ke.army.mil/bordeninstitute…

Don't do it - complications are not worth it.
One thing you could train yourself to do is to climb more efficiently, more relaxed, that will minimize your water loss through perspiration.
Additionally, effective hydration has been quite an interesting sports medicine topic, especially for endurance athletes. I'd recommend spending some time researching what the correct mixture of electrolytes and carbohydrates is to make each drop of water you carry the most effective.

Here is a paper on hydration during prolonged endurance:

"Fluids and hydration in prolonged endurance performance"

Conclusion
Exercise, athletic competition, prolonged workouts, and long training sessions in hot, hot and humid, or cold environments challenge physiologic function. Dehydration, thermoregulation, fluid balance, rehydration, electrolyte changes, plasma volume, and cardiovascular challenges, to name a few, accompany most physical activities, exercise, training, and competition. This is especially true during prolonged endurance exercise and competition. Loss of body fluids inherently leads to a performance decrease, especially if the exercise is performed in hot environment. Thus, it is recommended that all individuals who exercise, train, and/or compete attempt to rehydrate and replace fluids and electrolytes that have been lost during exercise, mostly as a result of sweating. Maintaining proper hydration is not only a physiologic necessity but also adds to a performance advantage and reduces risks of medical problems or injury due to fluid losses.75–82

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900704001029

I'm sure we have some military folks on here that can chime in on this - I know a Ranger who told me that before a big ruck run (like running a 10K with ruck and rifle - it sucks) guys would go out to a local Italian joint and "carb up" on pasta and load up on water. Drink till peeing clear the night before. Then you unload all that weight in the morning and drink regularly throughout the day during your climb/run whatever. Rule of thumb is that if you wait till you're thirsty you've waited too long. If you're peeing dark yellow that's a bad thing... the body performs best when hydrated. Good luck with your training!

Climb faster. Carry less water. Unfortunately, I'm not always very good at this.

Steven Groetken wrote:I remember hearing about a military study done in the 50s that tried to examine if this was possible (can't find any literature unfortunately). From what I recall, it was extremely unsuccessful and led to a lot of hospitalized soldiers. The findings were basically that you can't train your body to utilize less water, all things considered equal. What you can do is train. Less body fat equals less use of water. Rationing water is also not a good idea, as indicated by the health consequences on kidneys, and it also leads to poor performance. By using less water your ability to climb will be severely diminished. It appears that by drinking an adequate amount, your body's ability to carry the required H20 will be increased, so that the added weight is proportional to your increased performance. I found this article, and it was very informative. ke.army.mil/bordeninstitute…

"less body fat equals less use of water".

Less weight generally, or less fat specifically? I'm curious about the metabolic justification for this if the answer is that fat requires more water.

Greg E wrote: +1 I had several kidney stones as a result of chronic dehydration from cycling. Drink lots of water.

I also developed a kidney stone from reducing my water intake. Trust me... it's NOT pleasant.

astrov wrote: "less body fat equals less use of water". Less weight generally, or less fat specifically? I'm curious about the metabolic justification for this if the answer is that fat requires more water.

In hot weather, fat insulates you more from generated body heat (when exercising), leading to increased sweating. This makes sense to me (I have not read the study).

I have noticed that my climbing partner sometimes requires different amounts of water from myself. We once survived for 24 hours on less than 2 liters for two people. I drank more than 50% and was hallucinating, my partner didn't seem to be under the same stress.

astrov wrote: "less body fat equals less use of water". Less weight generally, or less fat specifically? I'm curious about the metabolic justification for this if the answer is that fat requires more water.

I suspect this comment is not backed by research. He or she is likely using this as their evidence: "Lean body mass is about 73% water and fat body mass is 10% water."

Most of the research on dehydration has shown that the rate of sweating is more due to:
1. The length and intensity of the sport
2. The temperature it is performed (with more sweating occuring at extreme cold and extreme heat)
3. Clothing worn

For example, the research study with the link below, recommends the same amount of water for elite soccer players AND elite basketball players, even though basketball players weigh more and are taller.

Also, in studies, during competition season, soccer players sweat more than basketball players. They argue it's likely due to the intermittent breaks that occur in basketball; versus high intensity of soccer, mixed with the lack of breaks in soccer.

humankinetics.com/acucustom…

Also don't forget, there is great individual differences in rate of sweating that are unexplained besides saying hereditary differences. However, population studies don't support increased body weight = increased sweating.

George Bell wrote: In hot weather, fat insulates you more from generated body heat (when exercising), leading to increased sweating. This makes sense to me (I have not read the study). I have noticed that my climbing partner sometimes requires different amounts of water from myself. We once survived for 24 hours on less than 2 liters for two people. I drank more than 50% and was hallucinating, my partner didn't seem to be under the same stress.

The problem with this example, is that in the real world, one who is not in shape with enough extra fat to "insulate" won't be able to perform the same intensity and/or productivity of work. Therefore, in general, the person who weighs less, but performs at a higher work load, ends having a harder time maintaining body temperature. Therefore, theoretically would sweat more. Also, if they are able to maintain the high intensity of work for a longer period, would sweat significantly more.

Also depending on the type of work (e.g. basketball vs soccer) you have a different amount of sweating per activity. The parallel would be rope climbing versus bouldering. I would assume someone who does a climb and rests for a few minutes that starts up again for 1-2 hours will sweat less than someone who is on the wall a lot longer, but at lower intensity

Just my 2 cents.
-Joe

Awesome replies, thanks to everyone. I will focus on getting the most out if my water, electrolyte, carb intake. I did find done info related to this subject, although it was directed towards running. My basic understanding is that Gatorade isn't all that it's cracked up to be. At least not the regular stuff that has tons of sugar. Maybe the G2 I'd better, but even so, it sounds as if there is a better mixture or drink. Can anyone comment on this?

There is very little research in climbing. However research on other sports is consistent with the recommendation of consuming carbohydrates in your sports drink if you are exercising >1 hour.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900704001029
link.springer.com/article/1…

However, it does not need to be Gatorade; see link below.

CONCLUSIONS: This study demonstrates that a GLU + FRC mixture is oxidized to the same degree then administered as either semisolid GEL or liquid DRINK, leading to similarly high peak oxidation rates and oxidation efficiencies.

europepmc.org/abstract/med/…

astrov wrote: "less body fat equals less use of water". Less weight generally, or less fat specifically? I'm curious about the metabolic justification for this if the answer is that fat requires more water.

I know that fat metabolism requires water, unlike sugars & glycogen. So if you have no fat to metabolize, you probably use less water.

But, fat is a chief energy source on multiday endeavors, and it protects your joints and such. Cutting body fat to unusually low levels to cut water needs would be folly.

Patrick Shyvers wrote: I know that fat metabolism requires water, unlike sugars & glycogen. So if you have no fat to metabolize, you probably use less water. But, fat is a chief energy source on multiday endeavors, and it protects your joints and such. Cutting body fat to unusually low levels to cut water needs would be folly.

Please due your due diligence. The need for water during sports is not dependent on energy metabolism;, there is actually a net positive when you break down any macronutrient.

nature.com/nature/journal/v…

"THE utilization by the body of ingested food substances and of tissue reserves yields among other things quantities of metabolic water. As the complete combustion of 100 gm. of fat produces about 110 gm. of metabolic water, whereas 100 gm. of carbohydrate yields only 55 gm. of water, fat reserves and fatty foods are believed to be particularly valuable as a protection against desiccation. This contention would appear to be supported by the fact that many animals which exist in deserts have large reserves of fat."

Glycogen vs Fat Breakdowna and amount of water created.:

GLYCOGEN
C6HIoO s + 602---'-> 6CO2 + 5H20
FAT
C52H1040 6 + 7502----'->" 52CO2 + 52H20

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi…(81)90212-0/pdf

I haven't done any bigwall climbing at all, or any alpine. But I've done a lot of day hiking and working outside in hot and cold weather, so I've got some experience with dehydration and it's effects. My thought is that the slower your pace, the less likely you are to sweat, and the less heavily you will breathe. Breathing through your mouth will lose more liquid than through your nose, but once you start working heavily you'll have to breathe through your mouth. So if it were me I'd get my cardio up and then try and avoid climbing so hard I was sweating too much (perhaps not possible, depending on what you're climbing).

Water is necessary for so much of our body function including cognitive ability, muscle strength, and efficiency and accuracy of our nervous system, removal of toxins such as lactic acid, that the only way to perform at our peak (whatever that may be) is to stay hydrated. The most efficient way to do that is to try and retain as much water as possible, and replace it as needed. I don't think trying to "train" your body to go without is going to get you very far at all. But that's just my personal thinking.

JeffL wrote:Awesome replies, thanks to everyone. I will focus on getting the most out if my water, electrolyte, carb intake. I did find done info related to this subject, although it was directed towards running. My basic understanding is that Gatorade isn't all that it's cracked up to be. At least not the regular stuff that has tons of sugar. Maybe the G2 I'd better, but even so, it sounds as if there is a better mixture or drink. Can anyone comment on this?

I put a couple "Nuun" tablets in my Nalgene and roll (2 tablets to a liter.) Electrolyte depletion can cause a person to "bonk." My wife's sister is a marathon runner and put me on to it, and I never go out for a long time without it. Nuun is carried at a lot of outdoor shops or you can get deals online. Lots of flavors and isn't sugar-based. Just about getting electrolytes lost from sweating back into you. Google it and see what you think...

Joe Coover wrote: Please due your due diligence. The need for water during sports is not dependent on energy metabolism;, there is actually a net positive when you break down any macronutrient.

Fat metabolism is a source of water, yes. But, turning to your own linked article:

John Candlish wrote:Schmidt-Nielsen points out that the oxygen consumption must also be taken into account, since the more oxygen required for a specific 'fuel', the more water is lost from the lungs. He calculates that, for a gain of 10,000 kcal, oxidation water for fat is 1.13 kg, whereas water lost in respiration is 1.8 kg (a net loss of 0.67 kg) whereas for starch the corresponding figures are 1.7 and 1.33, a net loss of only 0.37 kg

I'm not at all an expert though, so I welcome correction. Reviewing the general form of the fat metabolism pathway, it does look like you are right in that fat reaction itself is an oxidation, i.e. oxygen is the other input, not water. On the other hand it looks like there is a pathway involving hydrolysis, which takes water as an input... It's a very interesting question, and I haven't spent much time with biochem in many years.