SCC Community Forum

That's a pretty inane argument. I've led some bolted routes on gear myself just to prove bolts aren't necessary...

Really, virtually any sport route can be led on gear. Right?

youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh…

Does that mean it should?

And if you don't think "style" matters(ed)?, you haven't probably been climbing very long. Maybe it doesn't matter at all to kids these days, but it's practically all that was discussed by all the big orgs like AAC for many many years..."eurodogs" and all. heh. Words from the 80s?

“The South is a sanctuary where climbers could care less whether you are a eurodogger, redpointer, or believe that the earth is flat. It is enough that you are a climber who shares in the spirit, power, and aesthetics that guide us in our dream-like existence in the vertical world. That you love the sport is, in the final analysis, enough for us." Rob Robinson

...

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/12198705300/Same-Board-Different-Rules

..and even more recently than that...

adventureblog.nationalgeogr…

++++++++++++++++++++

Edited for below: I am unable to post anymore evidently, so I guess I will have to go here.

It appears you don't understand the point I am making. Watch Petit do Black Bean....and think about what you are saying. It is a slippery slope...by your thinking the bolts on Black Bean should be removed, look, they are near natural protection right?

We are all seeing the same thing, right? Petit putting in gear instead of clipping bolts...?

also, rap bolting is "anything but" a trad ethic, yet you guys seem to be all somehow concerned about "trad ethic". It's weird..

Seems pretty laughable to me, but to reiterate, I learned trad from fellas that said stuff like Bachar's power drill and putting holes in on hooks was way "over the top". No frigg'n!

I think it's just one more person runnin up in here tryin to start a pissin match. Just tell us where you stand. Bolts near protectable features, or no? Rap bolting, or no? Retro bolting, or no? Don't critique my position...you won't change it. Just tell me yours.

Here's something...

I'm really not a big fan of the gub'ment...but who is doing a better job of managing the crags they own..climbers? or state or federal authorities? Here's a short list...which do you think are currently better managed?

Sunset?
The Tennessee Wall?
Steele?
Castle Rock?
Yellow Bluff?

That right there is probably the way I would rate them from best to worst. What order would everyone else put them in?

Paul, have you climbed at yellow bluff in the last 2 years? Or ever for that matter? I'm just trying to get my facts straight.

Ever...yes.
In the last two yrs...no.

How would you rate them Ryan? It seems like every time I post a question, or ask for people to let me know where they stand, I get challenged on my position or opinion. Hell I'm not the authority on anything. But I'm willing to tell ya where I stand, and I honestly wanna hear where others stand as well on things like managing crags, retro bolting, and bolting near protectable features. So let's hear it...and I'm not talking specifically to Ryan. This thing has thousands of views and only a few folks speaking up. Don't be scared...everyone has a right to their opinion...let's hear em...

Ryan7crew wrote:Paul, have you climbed at yellow bluff in the last 2 years? Or ever for that matter? I'm just trying to get my facts straight.

I fail to see the correlation between the frequency of Paul's visits to Y.B. and the management thereof.
But, I sure look forward to having it explained soon.

Neither have I been there in two years....
Have you done some serious cleaning up since then?
Right the wrongs of those retro-bolting Chattanoogans?
Any more errant bolts go in during the last 24-30 months (nevermind the years prior to that)?
Take over care/management of your home crag in the face of substantiated accusations?

Just checking facts...

Just got a chance to watch that video. And, YES, that demonstrates my position almost perfectly. Not quite perfectly because it is not necessarily my opinion that the bolts should now be removed (maybe they should). It is my opinion that they should not have been there in the first place. I think that whoever put them there kinda robbed some future badass of an incredible ground up FA. Maybe some visionary who hasn't even been born yet. Maybe using gear that hasn't even been invented yet...dude mentions new cams that are more well suited for limestone. Last time I checked there weren't any new rocks being created. It's a bit pretentious to think that we need to climb them all right now by any means necessary.

Just one guy's opinion...and I'm sure I'll catch plenty of shit for it. But I'm not afraid to tell it to ya.

Flame on!

So basically, according to Paul Barnes and the trad community. Unless you sack up and place gear, you have no business climbing outdoors.

Sort of...
But the trad/sport thing is tired.
I've clipped bolts where they belong.
I've placed gear where I'd wished there was a bolt nearby.
Ethics.
That is all.

PS. If all you have is gym skills....
No, you have no business outside.
Accidents are rampant.
It's raining noobs.

Alright Paul, just for you:
Sunset
Yellow Bluff
TWall
Steele
I can't say anything about Castle because I've only been there twice and don't know a lot about the history.

I got your noob right here hillbilly. Hope to see you outside.

I wouldn't say that if you don't place gear you have no business outside. But, I would say that if you don't place gear you shouldn't be out there drillin sport routes. I think ya need to know what protectable features are in order to avoid placing bolts near them, and that that knowledge would most likely come from having placed gear.

I don't care to place gear. Had a friend who died from placing gear.

Okay, so to be clear.....
I believe we are talking about separate issues.
And, surprisingly, it seems the Cajun and I are of the same accord.

Paul's point, and mine, is that this stuff is wrong:
mountainproject.com/v/bolte…
We are losing on all fronts.
Nature.
Nature is being accosted by this sort of strange new need for everything to be SAFE.

To that end, when I say it's raining "noobs", that's not an afront.
It's a call to action.

And you are not special if you've had someone close play a little close to the flame.
We've all had friends/family/acquaintances "go in"...
Climbing, BASE jumping, motorcycling, hunting, narcotics, suicide, cancer, whatever.

POINT IS.....
Outdoor knowledge will reduce these two things.
1. Impact on nature....the environment.....
2. Accidents/deaths.

You don't wanna place gear 'cause you think it's dangerous?
I can't even believe we are discussing this.
Learn to PUT A CAM IN A CRACK.
Don't get the rope behind your foot....
Etc., etc.

"Bolt it so it's safe."
"Learn to use your brain and place gear, so nature AND you are safe."
Two different ends of the spectrum for this user group.
Where to we coincide?

If I don't climb the way you think I should, well then I shouldn't be climbing. I guess we should change your name to father nature. No human being should be able to climb outdoors unless they are willing to plug cams. If you don't plug cams then you will be branded a noob. I know how to place a cam, I just don't want to anymore.

Um, no.
Being new makes you a noob.
Lack of knowledge.
If you choose to climb sport exclusively, that's your problem.
And let's keep it that way by not needlessly bolting cracks, protectable face, in wilderness areas, on state land, along national scenic trails, creeks, or rivers, etc.
You got it twisted.
That's the main point.

I don't see climbing sport as my problem. You are the one who has a problem with it. I don't condone bolting splitters either. Just remember, although there may be bolts on a certain route doesn't mean you have to clip them.

I think this is where we come full circle to the rock / route clearly dictating how it protects. Protectable features vs bolts.

Certainly there's a place for bolts and sport climbing outside. There are also routes that are, and should be, unleadable if you are unwilling to protect them with gear.

OR....have we come to the point where it's OK for me to go manufacture some sweet three finger pockets about three digits deep on your 5.13 because it's not "safe" for me to pull that hard on the tiny little holds that are there because I might risk injuring myself? I have every right to be able to climb that thing too, right? But the rock didn't present me with everything I needed to do so...right? So...I should be able to install what I need...right? And...if you don't like them you can just skip them...right?

Same, same.

And just to make that perfectly clear....YES....I am equating bolting cracks with chipping / manufacturing holds.

I think the gym is dangerous.