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New Sport routes on Duncan's Ridge ?

Kyle Kamrath · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 10
Nathan McBride wrote:Lot of good discussion on here and also a lot of egos. As with most MP forums you have to sift through a lot to distill valid arguments for both sides. Why don't we graduate from the MP forum and hold a public meeting to discuss things in person. We can pick a brewery, cafe, or any place. NCCC has done a great deal for Northern Colorado climbing and the climbing community. Lets sit down and discuss this like a community instead of vomiting hate online. "Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk"
Cheers to that!
Jason Tarry · · Fort Collins · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 275

Any modernization of existing climbing areas/routes should require feedback from the original contributor/developer or at least the feedback from the community.

We should also make a point to document how the original ascent was done. If you climb an established gear route on Toprope does that constitute a send? If you climb an originally established headpoint, gear route with modern bolts is that a send of the original route? Modernization of old routes is likely to occur more and more. I do not believe that modernization is negative. Modernizing a route will "dumb it down" or "take the sting out". The original method of protection or lack of protection needs to be appreciated as routes are modernized. There is a big difference in sending Pinch Overhang with modern crash pads and half a dozen spotters versus the original method without pads, and no spotters. A send of Pinch Overhang the original method requires a completely different head space.

I would also ask for the climbers to stay engaged with the community. Let's share the information we have related to development. Like the old saying, "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, did it fall?". If a route get's sent on marginal gear and no one knows about it... Otherwise, if the route is "modernized" than it is no ones fault but the obscure developer. Let's share great old photos and personal accounts related to the vast climbing history of the area in a more productive manner.

The NCCC is a group of passionate local climbers who simply want to give back. The NCCC is a great organization that can be a great resource for sharing knowledge and building community.

I don't believe Nelson was acting with ego or disrespect for the original developers. He simply intended to improve the accessibility of a valuable resource.

Jason

Eric Bratschun · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 75
Nathan McBride wrote:Lot of good discussion on here and also a lot of egos. As with most MP forums you have to sift through a lot to distill valid arguments for both sides. Why don't we graduate from the MP forum and hold a public meeting to discuss things in person. We can pick a brewery, cafe, or any place. NCCC has done a great deal for Northern Colorado climbing and the climbing community. Lets sit down and discuss this like a community instead of vomiting hate online. "Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk"
Thanks Nathan for bringing a proactive and positive suggestion to this topic where the community can give the feedback they clearly desire. I appreciate the countless beneficial projects and services the NCCC has done for our community in the past.

To all who have an opinion on the matter, let's take this as an opportunity to collectively give direction to the changes we want to see going forward. It's a great thing to be able to have the support and involvement from a group of such motivated individuals.

Eric
Jeff G · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,098
JKeller wrote: Yeah dude, totally. Duncan's = Lumpy = Eldo Holy shit people, its Duncan's Ridge. Some of these old guys need to let go of their glory days of soloing at Horsetooth. This isn't exactly Kor's Flake were talking about.
You don't seem to have respect for the traditions of Horsetooth nor do you understand what a bastion of Colorado climbing the reservoir was and still remains. It is, in fact, a very hallowed venue for climbing in this state.
I have stated that the bolts are unnecessary and that they lack any vision of the past or of the future. The future I'm talking about is not my own, but the future of the new climbers and the new generations of climbers to come.
The area should be preserved, not so I can re-live my glory days, but so that a new generation of climber can share in that same experience. So that a new generation can truly learn to climb and not learn to just clip bolts.
That's why us "old guys" feel so strongly. Because we love the experiences that we have had and we want to share that and let you also experience it as we did.
Placing gear, learning to set up top ropes and learning when you can solo or not solo a route are far more valuable climbing experiences then leading on bolts.
That is my argument. I don't need to go experience it all over again. I took away what I needed from Duncan's Ridge and I've applied those skills to bigger venues and to climbs that have truly meant something to me in my life.
Dave Bohn aka "Old Fart" · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 285

I moved to Ft. Collins in 1973, to go to CSU, after learning to climb at Devil's Lk ,WI beginning in 1970. By then, I was able to onsight (TR) nearly every single F10 route at "The Lake". My very first day at CSU, I was already asking about the "Gill Boulders" up at Horsetooth,and a friend of mine that came out to CSU with me had friend that was taking some people up to Horsetooth to go "rock climbing" so I tagged along and discovered Rotary Park. My very first boulder problem at Horsetooth, was an onsight solo of the Bolt Wall.

Within a few weeks, I'd hooked up with my first climbing partner that had wheels, Doug Hahn, and soon, a few others came along that became the original "Horsetooth Hardcores". Steve Mammon, Malcolm Daly, Ken Decker, Ken Duncan,Steve Bass, and a few others. The Boulderites were a constant presence as well, the likes of Jim Halloway, "Duncan" Ferguson,etc. were a constant fixture "back in the day".

Then a couple of really young HS kids showed up, Mark Wilford and Scott Blunk !! We were all taking bets how long Mark would live. The bets started at 1 week, then 1 month, then 1 year. I guess we were all wrong.

New boulders at Rotary were ripe for the picking. I pioneered the "Penny Boulder" and "The North Slab". But Rotary got too small, really quick, so I moved further north to pioneer the routes at "Land of the Overhangs" and the Steve's, along with "Duncan" moved south. Steve Bass was probably the greatest no-name climber to ever come around . We nicknamed him "Static Man", because his moves were so smooth. He was probably the first person to really push the highball routes at Horsetooth/Duncan's. He'd go up for hours at a time, up/down climbing every move, until he could send. He used this to get a very early repeat of Jules Verne. To chill down in the late afternoon, he'd sit down to "Meditate" in his best lotus position on a large block down below the Eliminator, hence "Meditation Rock"

I loved his style and started training at Duncan's to get my head in shape for what were my favorite climbs back in the day, the huge run-out slabs of Yosemite and the Splatte where you might find 1-2 bolts, with their tin foil hangers, on an entire 150' pitch of sustained "5.9+" on a flawless slab.

By 1977, my brain was fried from the stress of the dozens of routes and countless hours of being on all of the R/X routes and I took a long Sabbatical and pursued a "career" in Hang Gliding as well as getting married, settling down and starting a family. It was my 4yr old son that reignited my love of climbing in 1986. I was cleaning out my garage, and when he saw my gear in an old box, he asked me what it was. He then asked me when would I take him climbing......

It was the beginning of winter, and on a cold November day, when I was sure nobody would be out and recognize me, I snuck up to Horsetooth/Rotary with my 10 yr old EB's and proceeded to send ~ 60-75% of every route I'd ever done. But imagine my surprise, when there was one other climber there, Duncan Ferguson. Encouraged by the success, I set up a training routine in my garage, and when I returned to "the scene" the next Spring with a vengeance, I was capable of cranking multi one arm pull ups with either arm. On one of my first days back, and Jim Brink can corroborate the facts, I came up with/onsighted what is now the "Static Start" of the Right Eliminator Prow because of my vertical leap of negative 12", and asked why nobody had ever used these holds. A few weeks later, I made the first TR of what is now called the Lynn Hill Roof at Rotary, and the next fall, in what is probably my crowning glory, I onsighted (on TR) the true Nemesis Arete.

But during that revival, I also saw all of the new gear, aka "cams" and decided to get back into trad climbing, and again, Duncan's was my training ground. I learned to place the new gear and further honed my headgame by soloing nearly every route on the ridge, including all of the newly bolted routes.

The late, great, Craig Luebben always told me he was sorry for not including me in his article in climbing Magazine about the history of bouldering at Horsetooth. He always said I had nearly the best tendon strength of any climber he'd ever met from the 70's but that I was at the top of the heap for "sandbaggers". I took that as a great complement !!

I could go on and on and on, but it doesn't make any difference. I guess sport bolting little 30-40' 5.7-5.10 boulder problems is what the "Climbing Community" in N CO wants, despite the 50+ years of history.

Ken Duncan · · Ft Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2004 · Points: 5,719

I'm OK with bolted top rope anchors for safety and environmental preservation but do not feel that retro-bolting the faces is acceptable. A little history may give some insight into why I feel this way.

Duncan's Ridge is named for Duncan Ferguson. In the late 60's/early 70's this area was his escape from the crowds at Flagstaff and Rotary. He would spend afternoons soloing up and down the ridge probably doing most every route done there today. Those of you who don't know of him should take a look at the book Climb to get a tiny taste of his accomplishments (FFA of the Naked Edge, Wide Country and the Casual Route, FA's of many heinous ice smears etc.). You will only find a small fragment of the routes Duncan did recorded anywhere as he is extremely modest and non self promoting. Duncan is also the most graceful climber bar none that I have ever had the privilege of sharing a rope with. He is well known for being one of the best ever on run-out and scary leads (next time you do the Bastille Crack check out the Ferguson Direct just to the left and imagine what it was like prior to being retro-bolted). Besides his climbing accomplishments Duncan is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. All this may sound like hero worship but ask anyone who knows him and I guarantee you will get the same story.

Along with other arguments that have already been presented, Duncan's legacy may help explain why some of us feel that retro-bolting the ridge is a travesty.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Dave, Ken, this is exactly the the history I (personally) wanted to hear about. Thank you both for sharing. It makes me feel differently about the sport route bolting.

Joseph Crotty · · Carbondale, CO · Joined Nov 2002 · Points: 1,903

Dave Bohn on the Gill Traverse on Mental Block 1987 spotted by Timy Fairfield.

Dave Bohn cranks Gill Traverse on Mental Block. Timmy Fairfield spots.

Michael Botkin · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 25

I went to Duncan's Ridge for my first time on Sunday and climbed with my wife who is "newer" to the outdoor climbing scene. We immediately ran into people that we knew who were climbing with their friends, kids, husbands/wives/partners and also met some new friends in our short time there.

All of the top rope anchors on the Upper Wall were being used, one group was practicing placing trad on Easy Crack, one group was "enjoying" falling on top rope while on the roof route, three children all under the age of 7 were having a blast on top rope climbing Apples and Oranges, and my wife was practicing lead belay while I clipped some bolts. There were probably 5 other groups on The Nose Wall as well.

If the NCCC's intentions were to add bolts to existing routes to make them "safer" by giving the option of clipping bolts then that was achieved. Whether or not the majority of the climbing community agrees with that or how these decisions are made by the NCCC, I have no idea, but I'll definitely be back with my friends, my kids, and my friends kids to climb these same routes, whether there are bolts for them to practice clipping or not.

Being a father of twins that just turned 5 and who have both been climbing almost every week at the gym for two years now, I feel privileged and grateful that I am able to share climbing with them at a safe, outdoor cliff that has such a rich history and passionate climbing community behind it and I'll definitely share that history with them as the years go on.

- Botkin

Nathan McBride · · Boulder · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 15

Much more civil conversation and great information here. I can see both sides, as I have seen places that are very intimate to me back home in NY change. What makes me happy is I see more people enjoying them. I see that they are better taken care of. Are routes still soloable after they have been bolted? How do we make a place safer, more accessible, and more resilient to it's land users while still respecting the first people to climb there?

There's a trail day for Duncan's Ridge coming up on June 27th, the more people to help the better. This would be a great opportunity for people to show up and engage in some discussion. Lets have a face to face conversation.

Kyle Kamrath · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 10
jeff walz wrote:Kyle, I'll agree that the ribbing's been beyond sufficient. A few things to consider though: -The reason you esteem these fellows so much is because you know them and have seen them in action. The same goes for all of us arguing to the contrary. We respect and admire the figures and traditions we grew up with. These people and places are the precedent. Period. -If you had been around long enough to really know what you're talking about, you'd recognize a few people dropping knowledge on this thread. They're some heavy-hitters who've put in lots of time. The fact that a few of you guys (the entourage) are calling them old guys makes you look ridiculously incredible. -Why you calling us haters? We love a place and are willing to speak up for it. Stick around for awhile. You may change your thinking.
Jeff, all valid points. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the heavy hitters from before me, and I only used the the term "old timers" to stay consistent with the vernacular on this thread.

I'm no badass, and frankly the only reason I spoke up is because Ryan is being subjected to criticism that extends far beyond what happened at DR. You may not have been hating, but others certainly were. There was a misstep- they showed an openness to rectify things, while others just kept harping on it.

As climbing moves mainstream, these issues are going to surface more often. The NCCC needs to balance maintaining history and tradition while simultaneously ushering in the new generation. Climbing is evolving, and as I've read on the thread, DR is not the same place it was decades ago. I hope we can find a way to learn from this and avoid the same issues moving forward.
Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
JKeller wrote:I think more people would want to remove the bolts if they heard history like this.
Exactly! I'm already trying to remember where I stashed my bolt cutters :)
trice Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 0

wow this started a shit storm. Is it my understanding that everyone is in agreement that the TR anchors are a good idea?

I personally don't see anything wrong with putting a single bolt in at the roof to make it leadable, but after reading the history of that climb as a test piece it makes me second guess this. The other climbs can almost all be done safely as a highball boulder or with a piece or 2 of pretty decent gear.

I know Ryan had the best intentions, and after climbing with him on several occasions it is clear that he has a deep love of NOCO climbing and has done a lot of development and overall helped the area a lot.

But why do you need to make these sport climbs? If the idea is to make it safer for beginners than just install TR bolts. Beginners can learn how to lead at the gym. There is no reason to introduce sport routes that can be relatively safely bouldered, or very safely lead on gear.

FCJohn · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 802

There seems to be a genuine resurgence in learning the history of Northern Colorado Climbing, of which, the knowledge and appreciation of is a fundamentally necessary pre-requisite before any new development in the area.

This is the book that Ken Duncan references.



Both the Poudre River & CSU libraries have it on the shelf. I'd encourage anyone with a healthy interest in Colorado climbing history and lore to pick it up and read it cover to cover. You can read many excerpts on google books for free with a simple web search. It will give you a new found appreciation for the style, ethic, gear, clean tactics, and accomplishments. I'm always amazed at how absolutely ripped these older guys were back in the day and crack up when I see old pictures of hardmen wearing lycra tights and swami belts. You'll recognize many of the names from this thread in the pages and pictures of the book.

Nathan & Kyle - It's obvious that Ryan is one of your "boys" and you have his back. I can respect that. Hey, I'd come to the defense of my crew too, if I perceived an unfairness or injustice. However, I can assure you that there was are no-egos from the older generation here and if you've ever been a first hand, eyewitness to legitimate bolting war, any "ribbing" that you claim of Ryan has been with kid gloves. Go ask any of the old timers about names like Christian Griffith, bob d'antonio, tony bubb, or many of the other cast of characters in the Boulder Bolt wars. In the Boulder wars, threats were made, blows were exchanged, and people run out of town. You may not see it this way, Ryan got off easy…

I'd like to believe that the Fort Collins climbing scene is a bit more refined, sophisticated and evolved than our neighbors down the road in the Boulder bubble. Its partly because these older hard men are just as classy as they are bold, strong and visionary. Ryan was called out in the court of public opinion and realized that he "dun messed up..." All of us make mistakes in the haze of youthful exuberance....

As Ken Duncan shared about Ferguson, there were never any egos associated with the individuals, their accomplishments, or the areas that they climbed. Perhaps, this is why the history so vague and the issues of style, ethics, and respect are tough for folks to digest. Previous climbing scholars have documented their accomplishments in Climb!, but you'll never you'll never hear them spray about the mind-blowing free solo routes they used to do or you'll never hear them seek credit for the lines they developed, or the thousands of hours and dollars that they've plowed into hardware. These legends have a healthy dose of humility and a complete absence of ego....

I can assure you that no one on the NCCC has an exclusive providence or license to invoke the hours, community service, hard work or contributions to the community as a justification for any unilateral actions... and I hope it’s not lost on anyone that the reason that climbs exist and have existed for decades is because of this older generation that were climbing in EBs before climbing was cool any any of us were born.

It's not appropriate to share the specifics, but Ryan sent a nice note with a sincere appology to a large number of the folks mentioned on this thread and there are plans to discuss mending fences like gentlemen over barley pops in the near future.

As for next steps on consenus, I'll let Ryan communicate back in his words and actions moving foward.
Mike Storeim · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Sep 2002 · Points: 30

Since I’ve been climbing at Horsetooth for 45 years now, I guess I’ll throw in my 2 cents worth due to the slight bit of revisionist history in this thread. Bohn, Daly, Mammen, Wilford, etc. were far from the first talented climbers to hit this area. I started climbing there, including Duncan’s Ridge, in 1970 and Gill, Dan Hare, Scott Woodruff, Brad Gilbert, Jeff Stringham and myself had already established many of the lines the “new guys” later found and claimed. Stringham was especially strong and prolific, having done every B-1 and B-2 problem at the Tooth and Flagstaff at the time – a claim nobody else, including Gill, could make. Those of us who were climbing there then often didn’t know who made the FA of some of the problems – they were simply shown to us by a friend and we climbed them, or at least tried. But this post, and certainly this thread isn’t spray about who climbed what first and when, because nobody really knows or cares these days – that is obvious by the retro bolting going on.

What the thread is about is that Horsetooth bouldering (notice I didn’t say climbing) has a history that predates the birth of the people currently bolting established boulder problems. It’s about a lack of respect for the history and ethics of the place vs. the supposed need to create laboratory safe access for an ever-larger group of people.

In 1971, I placed the first bolts I know of at Horsetooth – a toprope anchor at Rotary Park above the Cat Eye Wall. I was promptly informed of my breach of ethics and failure to respect my elders then, just as Ryan-Nelson is being chastised now. The difference seems to be that even though I may have been the trendsetter, I listened and never placed another bolt at the area.

As a self admitted crusty old trad climber, I’m sorry to see the bolting of these boulder problems, even though I haven’t climbed them in years. To me, it’s clearly a further dumbing down of the sport by a new breed. In the end, the damage has been done. The holes have been drilled and even though they can be filled, they can’t be undrilled. Let’s just hope that Pandora’s box isn’t too wide open.

But, if it is, Can I get you to bolt Midnight Lightning? That fall from the mantel is way scary……

eric owen · · Estes Park, Colorado · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 5

I only have 1.5 years to the area, but 2 weeks ago I visited Duncans for the first time. As a climber for 25 years with a deep root philosophy of climbing in the SE. I understand the ethics and history involved in a climbing area. As a professional mountain guide for 15 years through the AMGA (im now a nurse and dont guide much anymore), I also undstand the importance of triying to better a climbing area, and the upkeep that is involved with an area so close to the FC (plus the increase to climbers to the area). Plus the importance of making an area safe and teachable.

SO here is my TWO cents.

Put anchors in at the top of the established routes and or where compaction and vegation damage is really bad (this is nearly the entire cliff).

DO NOT put anchors where natural gear anchors can be built (at the top of the climb). There seems to a number of good quality trad climbs there. Therefore people would likely have a rack with them. So of these routes that allow for a quality gear anchor to be built, should not have fixed anchors at the top (Liberty's last Stand 5.8 comes to mind, Plus you dont impact the soil or vegatation on the pillar).

Dont place bolts, if there was none put in by the FA. Or get the FA permission first by the FA, to add bolts.

Me on Liberty Last Stand...I heard a rumor it's a sport route now????

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

FCJohn, thanks for the book title. I've just ordered it.

Edited: And thanks to Ken, who I just realized mentioned it first.

I'd also like to say that I really appreciate those of you who've taken the time to sit down and type out some of your personal experiences and accounts of the history at Duncan's Ridge and Horsetooth in general, to share with all of us new climbers reading. It changes me feeling about the area substantially. I'll be sure to share what I've learned from it with others I know and meet. And hopefully I'll learn much more from this book.

Cortland · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

It sounds like the ultimate question this thread is attempting to answer is how best to preserve the history of Duncan’s Ridge while allowing climbing’s growth in the area to progress in a environmental respectful and safe way.

There’s a question that has not been answered - how exactly is sport climbing disrespectful to the history of the crag? What exactly does it say against that history? Judging by the very skewed climbing population on this forum, the historical emphasis seems to be on the tradition of high-ball and high-knowledge climbing. To me, the historical emphasis should be on the climbing itself, the love of the sport, and the beautiful lines we get to touch, as set by the early pioneers. Who doesn’t want to share that history in every way possible? If the lines can be experienced in a different way, ala sport climbing, is that actually disrespectful to the history? If I were to now sport climb these routes, it only deepens my relationship with the rock and the route. I see the route in a new and different way. Why restrain that? It would cause me and others to respect the route, and the original climbers, more deeply.

The emphasis should be on experiencing the great lines the original climbers developed. Sport climbing in no way devalues the route. It broadens the perspective.

In my opinion, the solution is not to hold the sport back by reducing the ways to experience the rock. This is certainly not win-win. How about a couple historical placks at the base of the climbs, describing the history? Put them on some nice wooden posts. Maybe have some pics on them. This is a win-win scenario. Better respect for the history of the crag. More ways to experience the lines. This would place the area’s mission as increasing admiration for the rock AND increasing awareness of the history.

I vote for increasing historical awareness. Preventing different types of climbing does not do that. Educating the masses at this wall does.

Elijah Flenner · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 820
Cortland wrote: If the lines can be experienced in a different way, ala sport climbing, is that actually disrespectful to the history? If I were to now sport climb these routes, it only deepens my relationship with the rock and the route. I see the route in a new and different way. Why restrain that? It would cause me and others to respect the route, and the original climbers, more deeply. The emphasis should be on experiencing the great lines the original climbers developed. Sport climbing in no way devalues the route. It broadens the perspective.
I will have to respectively disagree. For you, adding bolts does not devalue the route, but for
others it does. You may not understand their opinion, but one should respect their opinion.
Since there are many people who would like to have the cliff devoid of sport climbs,
not just "old-timers", and there is a long history of climbers
enjoying the cliff partially due to the lack of sport climbs, I believe that the cliff should remain
devoid of sport climbs. I am not saying that every cliff should remain devoid of easy sport climbs,
but a precedence has been set at Duncan's ridge. I don't see it as respecting the history, but
rather respecting other climbers.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Cortland wrote: ... I vote for increasing historical awareness. Preventing different types of climbing does not do that. Educating the masses at this wall does.
The place obviously needs an audio guide circuit, with headphones you can rent at the visitor center and a wax museum.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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