New Sport routes on Duncan's Ridge ?
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Nathan McBride wrote:Lot of good discussion on here and also a lot of egos. As with most MP forums you have to sift through a lot to distill valid arguments for both sides. Why don't we graduate from the MP forum and hold a public meeting to discuss things in person. We can pick a brewery, cafe, or any place. NCCC has done a great deal for Northern Colorado climbing and the climbing community. Lets sit down and discuss this like a community instead of vomiting hate online. "Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk"Cheers to that! |
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Any modernization of existing climbing areas/routes should require feedback from the original contributor/developer or at least the feedback from the community. |
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Nathan McBride wrote:Lot of good discussion on here and also a lot of egos. As with most MP forums you have to sift through a lot to distill valid arguments for both sides. Why don't we graduate from the MP forum and hold a public meeting to discuss things in person. We can pick a brewery, cafe, or any place. NCCC has done a great deal for Northern Colorado climbing and the climbing community. Lets sit down and discuss this like a community instead of vomiting hate online. "Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk"Thanks Nathan for bringing a proactive and positive suggestion to this topic where the community can give the feedback they clearly desire. I appreciate the countless beneficial projects and services the NCCC has done for our community in the past. To all who have an opinion on the matter, let's take this as an opportunity to collectively give direction to the changes we want to see going forward. It's a great thing to be able to have the support and involvement from a group of such motivated individuals. Eric |
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JKeller wrote: Yeah dude, totally. Duncan's = Lumpy = Eldo Holy shit people, its Duncan's Ridge. Some of these old guys need to let go of their glory days of soloing at Horsetooth. This isn't exactly Kor's Flake were talking about.You don't seem to have respect for the traditions of Horsetooth nor do you understand what a bastion of Colorado climbing the reservoir was and still remains. It is, in fact, a very hallowed venue for climbing in this state. I have stated that the bolts are unnecessary and that they lack any vision of the past or of the future. The future I'm talking about is not my own, but the future of the new climbers and the new generations of climbers to come. The area should be preserved, not so I can re-live my glory days, but so that a new generation of climber can share in that same experience. So that a new generation can truly learn to climb and not learn to just clip bolts. That's why us "old guys" feel so strongly. Because we love the experiences that we have had and we want to share that and let you also experience it as we did. Placing gear, learning to set up top ropes and learning when you can solo or not solo a route are far more valuable climbing experiences then leading on bolts. That is my argument. I don't need to go experience it all over again. I took away what I needed from Duncan's Ridge and I've applied those skills to bigger venues and to climbs that have truly meant something to me in my life. |
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I moved to Ft. Collins in 1973, to go to CSU, after learning to climb at Devil's Lk ,WI beginning in 1970. By then, I was able to onsight (TR) nearly every single F10 route at "The Lake". My very first day at CSU, I was already asking about the "Gill Boulders" up at Horsetooth,and a friend of mine that came out to CSU with me had friend that was taking some people up to Horsetooth to go "rock climbing" so I tagged along and discovered Rotary Park. My very first boulder problem at Horsetooth, was an onsight solo of the Bolt Wall. |
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I'm OK with bolted top rope anchors for safety and environmental preservation but do not feel that retro-bolting the faces is acceptable. A little history may give some insight into why I feel this way. |
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Dave, Ken, this is exactly the the history I (personally) wanted to hear about. Thank you both for sharing. It makes me feel differently about the sport route bolting. |
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Dave Bohn on the Gill Traverse on Mental Block 1987 spotted by Timy Fairfield. |
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I went to Duncan's Ridge for my first time on Sunday and climbed with my wife who is "newer" to the outdoor climbing scene. We immediately ran into people that we knew who were climbing with their friends, kids, husbands/wives/partners and also met some new friends in our short time there. |
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Much more civil conversation and great information here. I can see both sides, as I have seen places that are very intimate to me back home in NY change. What makes me happy is I see more people enjoying them. I see that they are better taken care of. Are routes still soloable after they have been bolted? How do we make a place safer, more accessible, and more resilient to it's land users while still respecting the first people to climb there? |
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jeff walz wrote:Kyle, I'll agree that the ribbing's been beyond sufficient. A few things to consider though: -The reason you esteem these fellows so much is because you know them and have seen them in action. The same goes for all of us arguing to the contrary. We respect and admire the figures and traditions we grew up with. These people and places are the precedent. Period. -If you had been around long enough to really know what you're talking about, you'd recognize a few people dropping knowledge on this thread. They're some heavy-hitters who've put in lots of time. The fact that a few of you guys (the entourage) are calling them old guys makes you look ridiculously incredible. -Why you calling us haters? We love a place and are willing to speak up for it. Stick around for awhile. You may change your thinking.Jeff, all valid points. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the heavy hitters from before me, and I only used the the term "old timers" to stay consistent with the vernacular on this thread. I'm no badass, and frankly the only reason I spoke up is because Ryan is being subjected to criticism that extends far beyond what happened at DR. You may not have been hating, but others certainly were. There was a misstep- they showed an openness to rectify things, while others just kept harping on it. As climbing moves mainstream, these issues are going to surface more often. The NCCC needs to balance maintaining history and tradition while simultaneously ushering in the new generation. Climbing is evolving, and as I've read on the thread, DR is not the same place it was decades ago. I hope we can find a way to learn from this and avoid the same issues moving forward. |
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JKeller wrote:I think more people would want to remove the bolts if they heard history like this.Exactly! I'm already trying to remember where I stashed my bolt cutters :) |
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wow this started a shit storm. Is it my understanding that everyone is in agreement that the TR anchors are a good idea? |
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There seems to be a genuine resurgence in learning the history of Northern Colorado Climbing, of which, the knowledge and appreciation of is a fundamentally necessary pre-requisite before any new development in the area. Both the Poudre River & CSU libraries have it on the shelf. I'd encourage anyone with a healthy interest in Colorado climbing history and lore to pick it up and read it cover to cover. You can read many excerpts on google books for free with a simple web search. It will give you a new found appreciation for the style, ethic, gear, clean tactics, and accomplishments. I'm always amazed at how absolutely ripped these older guys were back in the day and crack up when I see old pictures of hardmen wearing lycra tights and swami belts. You'll recognize many of the names from this thread in the pages and pictures of the book. Nathan & Kyle - It's obvious that Ryan is one of your "boys" and you have his back. I can respect that. Hey, I'd come to the defense of my crew too, if I perceived an unfairness or injustice. However, I can assure you that there was are no-egos from the older generation here and if you've ever been a first hand, eyewitness to legitimate bolting war, any "ribbing" that you claim of Ryan has been with kid gloves. Go ask any of the old timers about names like Christian Griffith, bob d'antonio, tony bubb, or many of the other cast of characters in the Boulder Bolt wars. In the Boulder wars, threats were made, blows were exchanged, and people run out of town. You may not see it this way, Ryan got off easy I'd like to believe that the Fort Collins climbing scene is a bit more refined, sophisticated and evolved than our neighbors down the road in the Boulder bubble. Its partly because these older hard men are just as classy as they are bold, strong and visionary. Ryan was called out in the court of public opinion and realized that he "dun messed up..." All of us make mistakes in the haze of youthful exuberance.... As Ken Duncan shared about Ferguson, there were never any egos associated with the individuals, their accomplishments, or the areas that they climbed. Perhaps, this is why the history so vague and the issues of style, ethics, and respect are tough for folks to digest. Previous climbing scholars have documented their accomplishments in Climb!, but you'll never you'll never hear them spray about the mind-blowing free solo routes they used to do or you'll never hear them seek credit for the lines they developed, or the thousands of hours and dollars that they've plowed into hardware. These legends have a healthy dose of humility and a complete absence of ego.... I can assure you that no one on the NCCC has an exclusive providence or license to invoke the hours, community service, hard work or contributions to the community as a justification for any unilateral actions... and I hope its not lost on anyone that the reason that climbs exist and have existed for decades is because of this older generation that were climbing in EBs before climbing was cool any any of us were born. It's not appropriate to share the specifics, but Ryan sent a nice note with a sincere appology to a large number of the folks mentioned on this thread and there are plans to discuss mending fences like gentlemen over barley pops in the near future. As for next steps on consenus, I'll let Ryan communicate back in his words and actions moving foward. |
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Since Ive been climbing at Horsetooth for 45 years now, I guess Ill throw in my 2 cents worth due to the slight bit of revisionist history in this thread. Bohn, Daly, Mammen, Wilford, etc. were far from the first talented climbers to hit this area. I started climbing there, including Duncans Ridge, in 1970 and Gill, Dan Hare, Scott Woodruff, Brad Gilbert, Jeff Stringham and myself had already established many of the lines the new guys later found and claimed. Stringham was especially strong and prolific, having done every B-1 and B-2 problem at the Tooth and Flagstaff at the time a claim nobody else, including Gill, could make. Those of us who were climbing there then often didnt know who made the FA of some of the problems they were simply shown to us by a friend and we climbed them, or at least tried. But this post, and certainly this thread isnt spray about who climbed what first and when, because nobody really knows or cares these days that is obvious by the retro bolting going on. |
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I only have 1.5 years to the area, but 2 weeks ago I visited Duncans for the first time. As a climber for 25 years with a deep root philosophy of climbing in the SE. I understand the ethics and history involved in a climbing area. As a professional mountain guide for 15 years through the AMGA (im now a nurse and dont guide much anymore), I also undstand the importance of triying to better a climbing area, and the upkeep that is involved with an area so close to the FC (plus the increase to climbers to the area). Plus the importance of making an area safe and teachable. |
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FCJohn, thanks for the book title. I've just ordered it. |
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It sounds like the ultimate question this thread is attempting to answer is how best to preserve the history of Duncans Ridge while allowing climbings growth in the area to progress in a environmental respectful and safe way. |
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Cortland wrote: If the lines can be experienced in a different way, ala sport climbing, is that actually disrespectful to the history? If I were to now sport climb these routes, it only deepens my relationship with the rock and the route. I see the route in a new and different way. Why restrain that? It would cause me and others to respect the route, and the original climbers, more deeply. The emphasis should be on experiencing the great lines the original climbers developed. Sport climbing in no way devalues the route. It broadens the perspective.I will have to respectively disagree. For you, adding bolts does not devalue the route, but for others it does. You may not understand their opinion, but one should respect their opinion. Since there are many people who would like to have the cliff devoid of sport climbs, not just "old-timers", and there is a long history of climbers enjoying the cliff partially due to the lack of sport climbs, I believe that the cliff should remain devoid of sport climbs. I am not saying that every cliff should remain devoid of easy sport climbs, but a precedence has been set at Duncan's ridge. I don't see it as respecting the history, but rather respecting other climbers. |
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Cortland wrote: ... I vote for increasing historical awareness. Preventing different types of climbing does not do that. Educating the masses at this wall does.The place obviously needs an audio guide circuit, with headphones you can rent at the visitor center and a wax museum. |