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SCC Community Forum

Original Post
Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

There are already some questions about last night's community forum popping up in text messages, emails, and in the other thread. I thought I'd get us outta there and give this thing a fresh start and a more appropriate title. I don't have time to go into much detail right now...but this will give us a place to continue our discussion. Briefly...

A.) It wasn't as contentious as I anticipated.
B.) There is much work to be done.
C.) Each person, including me, is going to have to decide for themselves if they want to write the SCC off as something they can no longer support...or get involved and try to help bring about change.
D.) Voices need to be heard!

I'll go ahead and say that I was wrong about some things, and spot on about others. I'll get back to this later to elaborate. Hopefully some others can share some of their experience in the meantime.

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

I believe the SCC is planning on posting notes/minutes, but....
For clarity, some topics of concern that were addressed and my understanding of the group understanding/plans/initiatives....

DEEP CREEK (circumstances of purchase, timeline, etc.)
The SCC was very amicable and forthcoming in discussing the nature of the purchase and the timeline.
Some people felt that access to the Cumberland trail not only provided a shorter walk for sport climbers....
But also provides better access (up to 30 cars) for hikers and others.
And that this is good.
Others disagreed and further went on to question the legitimacy of the routes there, even if put up before the SCC deal.
There were some successes and some losses in this arena, but the topic is mostly closed, having been raked over real good.
The bolting, though....

YELLOW BLUFF
My opinion is that the Yellow Bluff history and contention has been well discussed and it has been agreed by most all in attendance that the retros, even the one's installed with pure intent and unknowing of the history, likely need address either by those that installed them, the SCC, or the Huntsville community...in that order.
Just like areas such as Jamestown and Steele have had history protected, the consensus seemed to me that there is a higher standard we should all try to adhere to.
It was noted, as we were in the largest gym in the US, that this will be a challenge

ANCHOR MANAGEMENT POLICY
To that end, the SCC has already drafted a "anchor management policy" that they suggest will apply to all of 'their' crags.
Clearly, what the rogue individual does in other places will need to be addressed in other ways.
I believe this will show up on the SCC site soon.
This is a good step, some think, in normalizing an increasingly bolt-intensive methodology.
Others point to how divisive the same thing was in Western NC some years ago.
My opinion: The time is right to try and stabilize the ethic so that we don't trample history, the ability to carry these same skills to bigger ranges for a wilderness experience, or lose sight that there should be some measurable risk element to climbing, as in years past.

"TRAD" SCHOOL (for lack of a better term)
To accomplish a Conservationalist/LNT-minded impact on upcoming climbing culture, someone mentioned "trad clinics"....
Basically, how to behave in the woods, away from sport crags or the TWall, where wilderness skills, stealth, and low impact are still very important.
Another person pointed out how poorly 'gym skills' and 'tactics' translate to and influence outdoors climbing.
Anchor building, as an example....
Also, the reduction in convenience that comes with moving over stone undetectable....cams and stoppers instead of clip ups.
The intent would be to tie these little clinics into gym activities, SCC activities, maybe some traildays.
There was notable interest from the more "senior" set in providing this sort of information.
I would be happy to participate in AL.
We shall see....

TALLULAH
Much talk surrounded Tallulah, the closures, permits, and peregrines, in general.
And also the notable use of the peregrines, by the park, to promote tourism....
Which is their duty.
The SCC commented on how important it was for true "locals" to participate as they are the face of the community.
The upcoming meeting that some of the Northern Georgians have set up seems to be the ideal in local participation.
Hopefully, this exposure will lead to either a split permit system or some other better accommodation for climbers as a user group.

SCC ORG
Questions were raised about the structure, election process, and number of members of the current board.
There seemed to be universal agreement that the SCC needs more diverse representation.
It was noted early that the SCC may have the potential to tap not only a more diverse group of senior members, but that these same people may be able to offer business, marketing, education, and other assistance.
One thing that was suggested by the SCC is that it is easier to get volunteer and partner support in Chatt.
Several Atlantians and I (as the only Alabamian) pointed out that there were people that volunteer regularly and large communities to tap, if greater presence was made in those states.

Overall, everyone was receptive to a variety of viewpoints and, although some topics seem slower moving, others have gained traction.
It seems that there have been slight misconceptions on both sides but that the vast majority of what has been said is true.
Some of it is good, some of it needs work.

Saving Tallulah access, addressing Yellow Bluff and greater bolting/ethics practices, and maintaining transparency and order seem to be the priority take aways for the SCC.

For the climbers in the room, take aways seem to have been that all organizations are imperfect to some degree and progress can be slow, eyes/ears are not closed to trespass and ill-bolting, and the org is open to change/evolution.

Thanks to Stone Summit and Fernando for the space and hospitality, Scott/Kirk/andMatt for setting the meeting, and to the rest of the attendees....be they 40 year FA'ists, 2 year gym climbers, or somewhere in between....for the support.

More to come, I am sure.

Crack Slabbath · · Chattanooga · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 500

Ben, Paul, et. al., thanks for the dialogue, note taking, getting the word out there for those of us who could not attend -- and the work you've already been doing. It does not go unnoticed.

Will Eccleston · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 25

So sorry I could not attend. I will definitely listen to the audio. But good-golly am I glad to hear some **cautious** optimism being taken away.

Huge thanks to everyone for continuing to talk about the future of southeastern climbing!

Matthew Gant · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 70

All,
The SCC would like to continue this discussion and all other SCC specific discussions on our website Forums.

Here is a link we started for this specific forum. I will try to post all previous info in the forum so it is preserved and then we can continue discussion there.

Here is a link to the post:
seclimbers.org/modules/Foru…

Please let me know if you have issues logging in or registering for our forums if you haven't done so previously.

thanks,
Matthew Gant
SCC President
info@seclimbers.org

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
Matthew Gant wrote:All, The SCC would like to continue this discussion and all other SCC specific discussions on our website Forums.
You're welcome to do this, but I'm sure the discussion will continue here as well (especially in light of the fact that the SCC website is inaccessible so much of the time).

JL
Thierry · · Pocatello, ID · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 10

How was this 'community forum' advertised?
By that I mean was this another 'clique' event or were invitations and schedule sent by email, posters in gyms, etc. ?

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
Matthew Gant wrote:All, The SCC would like to continue this discussion and all other SCC specific discussions on our website Forums. Here is a link we started for this specific forum. I will try to post all previous info in the forum so it is preserved and then we can continue discussion there. Here is a link to the post: seclimbers.org/modules/Foru… Please let me know if you have issues logging in or registering for our forums if you haven't done so previously. thanks, Matthew Gant SCC President info@seclimbers.org
In the interest of transparency and national/international-level comment, I would propose you let it reside here so that others, with more global perspectives, can comment.
The SCC board has laid dormant for YEARS.
Just my opinion.
I'll not continue dialogue elsewhere.

saxfiend wrote: You're welcome to do this, but I'm sure the discussion will continue here as well (especially in light of the fact that the SCC website is inaccessible so much of the time). JL
Good point, John. Maybe they need a good IT volunteer.
Will Eccleston · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 25

Thierry,

The meeting was organized very quickly to respond to some grievances brought to light in another Mountain Project Forum thread, and it was advertised on that thread, with the following post:

CodyR
3 days ago
quote | flag Hi all,

The SCC is hosting a community forum on Thursday, May 28 at Stone Summit Atlanta in the upstairs conference room at 7:30 pm.

Everyone is welcome and encouraged to attend and provide constructive feedback, ideas and discussions. We will address the issues brought up in this thread and provide a place for questions and further discussion.

We've also set up a live stream via google hangouts for those of you that can't be there:plus.google.com/events/ca4v5sm...

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Now...my take on the meeting in further detail:

Did we solve all the worlds problems?...certainly not.
Do I think the meeting was productive?...I actually do.

What did I get wrong?...some of the Deep Creek stuff. The financial transaction was explained in greater detail. I never cared too much about the money end of it, but some REALLY did so it's good that we went there. I cared more about the appearance of impropriety, conflict of interest, and secrecy. Was this explained to my complete satisfaction, no. Do I still think the whole thing just kinda gives off a bad smell...yeah, I kinda do. BUT...we brought up our issues, they got discussed, and it's one of those things that's just not gonna make everybody happy...and I'm willing to stop beating that dead horse.

In the previous thread I accused the SCC leadership of being a "cliquish bro man network of hypocritical posers."
Posers...strong word, maybe a poor choice, the SCC guys whom I know personally certainly are not...my bad.
Hypocritical...I proved this one beyond the shadow of a doubt in one very specific instance. SCC leadership accepted and acknowledged this fact, took full responsibility for it, and contacted me today for more info in order to deal with that situation. Are they ALL hypocrites. No.
Cliquish....this one is a real point of contention with some who do not want to be labeled as that and I don't think they view themselves as a clique. As with my other assertions, this cannot be applied as a blanket label to ALL board members. BUT...a case can certainly be made for that and it is part of a larger issue which is my next point.

The structure of the SCC and how they operate:

I asked some very direct questions about the positions on the board and within the org and the qualifications for, and duties of these positions. Questions I did not get direct answers to. And the reason I didn't is simply because they don't exist. The thing has gone from being run out of a shoebox to what it is today and these things just evidently did not develop as it grew. In the other thread I called for qualifications for all positions within the SCC to be clearly defined and all current and future candidates for the positions to be fully vetted to make sure they meet them. I stand by this 100%...but I understand that if these things are not in place they will take time to develop. I have a little experience with this type of thing and have offered my help if it's wanted.

My understanding of the way the positions on the board are currently filled is that the board nominates other folks to be on the board based on a variety of things...one I heard was a new one from Nashville had become deeply involved, held some good events, and the board thought this person deserved a seat at the table as a result, for instance. SO...I can see where the board appointing and electing itself, with no term limits, defined election cycles, etc....can be called a clique. It is what it is. It can be fixed.

And that's where this forum, or one like it, here, on the SCC board, or ANYwhere needs to be heard. What do YOU want to see it look like? How do YOU want to see it operate? Nothing is likely to change without someone coming up with an alternative. Post here, post on their website, email them, BE HEARD! I am.

ETHICS are still, as expected, a very hot topic. I could not pin anybody down on the SCC taking an ethical stand. It always seems to become sport vs trad and I really don't think that's all there is to it. Another thing that folks need to be VERY vocal on. What sort of ethical stance by the SCC can you support? What will you not support? We gotta talk about this one...a LOT. It's damned important.

In summary...

Can you now consider me a koolaid-aid drinkin minion? FUCK no. Is the SCC CURRENTLY an org I can join and throw my full support behind?...not even close. Am I willing to engage them in a more constructive dialogue, offer suggestions, and try to help turn it into something that I CAN get behind? Yes...yes I am.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221

Well stated, Cousin Paul.

JL

Mark O'Neal · · Nicholson, GA · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,323
BHMBen wrote:"TRAD" SCHOOL (for lack of a better term)
The folks up at the Gunks just a had a similar forum with some pretty big names in attendance. They covered this topic relative to the unique issues at the Gunks, but many of the action ideas apply to anywhere.

gunksclimbers.org/2015-05/2…
Scott Phil · · NC · Joined May 2010 · Points: 258

I wasn't at the meeting but did watch a bit of the video.

For the SCC board: I strongly recommend that you initiate staggered rotating terms. It is a good practice and makes it easier to recruit to your board. Many people who are reluctant to sign up for life will give an organization 2-3 years of their time. Ideally you should also have area representation.

I also like the idea of a trad school. There are a lot of people who have little to no experience with being out in the woods.
This thread on the dangers of being attacked by wildlife is both funny and a little scary.

Brian Payst · · Carrboro,NC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

The gunks event and several others like it are part of the Access Fund's ROCK project. It's a good start at building some increased competencies around responsible outdoor climbing. They are working on a set of resources that local groups can use and help spread the word. Judging from the session a couple of weeks ago at the solid protection summit, they are probably 6 months or maybe a little more from having that available. I was at the meeting a couple of years ago where the idea originated and it has been cool to see the progress they have made so far. Not a magic bullet by any sense, but it is a good start at helping people understand how to be good stewards and how to behave. It's something we can build on at the local level to try to steer things in the right direction.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30
Scott Phil wrote:I wasn't at the meeting but did watch a bit of the video. For the SCC board: I strongly recommend that you initiate staggered rotating terms. It is a good practice and makes it easier to recruit to your board. Many people who are reluctant to sign up for life will give an organization 2-3 years of their time. Ideally you should also have area representation.
I think developing an org chart and things of this nature are things the board is willing to address...Good ideas...keep em comin y'all ...
BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

Brian, Scott, Mark....

Good points....

To the 'trad clinincs'...
I believe it would be a good idea for the SCC to post some guidelines similar to what the AF has going or the Gunks thing....
Tailored, perhaps, for each state or significant area.
As the SE has little pockets of culture and differing opinions about the way thing ought to be, my preference would be for the SCC Area or State Reps to hold this responsibility, or their designee.

To one point made in the meeting having to do with the lack of volunteer support in AL and GA, I bet the SCC could easily enlist the assistance of the big gyms in BHM and ATL and I happen to know more than one person in each state more than qualified to be such a contact for LNT, 'tradtional', wilderness, etc. skills.

Wilderness behavior....
That thread about wildlife attacks is funny and not at the same time.
LNT, animal interaction, garbage/waste, and general best practices (No screaming, iPod speakers, hammocks accross/near trails, etc.) definitely needs an address in the SE as the population increases.

Concerning the org....
I agree that life positions or, "until I quit positions", are likely a bad idea.
Doesn't breed much new life into the group....and the election process leaves something to be desired.
There are continued talks about the organization of the board of the SCC, how it works, etc. within the SCC.
In light of recent backlash, my opinion is that serious consideration needs be given to revamping involvement/oversight, especially in GA (Ref.: Tallulah) and Alabama (Ref.: YB, etc.).

Brian Payst · · Carrboro,NC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10
BHMBen wrote:To the 'trad clinincs'... I believe it would be a good idea for the SCC to post some guidelines similar to what the AF has going or the Gunks thing.... Tailored, perhaps, for each state or significant area. As the SE has little pockets of culture and differing opinions about the way thing ought to be, my preference would be for the SCC Area or State Reps to hold this responsibility, or their designee.
The Gunks Climbers Coalition has a set of videos and materials they developed, but it's a little too Gunks-specific (in a good way) to really be just picked up and run with by others. Education is a huge challenge and we've struggled with the right way to do it in the CCC for a while now. Most local climbing organizations are run by volunteers who have jobs, want to go climbing themselves, etc. and it makes it tough to get out educational programs and efforts that take often large amounts of time. That's one reason why the AF approached Black Diamond and they agreed to fund the education program for the first 3 years.

One thing I saw recently from the SF Bay climbers coalition was "stewardship corners" for the gyms - places with info on closures, ethics, etc, that is updated regularly and contact info for groups that can help / are involved. We had kicked around something similar a while back in the CCC and never made it happen, I'm hoping to partner with the AAC and do that at gyms here in the Carolinas. It's a good start and part of a larger puzzle of how we manage the large numbers of new climbers and merge that with the right traditions and respect for the areas where we climb and how we climb there.
Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30
seclimbers.org/modules.php?…

Here's what it looks like. Currently only the board members vote.

If you live and climb in Tn, Al, or Georgia...do you know your State or Area rep?...see them out at the crag lately? Do you feel like they represent you and your interests well?

Input is needed on these things.
Jeff Mekolites · · Atlanta, GA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 5,250

I wanted to add some thoughts/ideas from the meeting. I found the meeting to be very informative. A lot of questions and concerns were addressed and will continue to be.

SCC Organization

• Whether the SCC board wants to or not the SCC organization has to take a stance on ethics – doesn’t have to be agreed on by each and every board member but a SCC ethics idea has to be developed…if we don’t take action now, we’ll have to settle for nothing later…

• manage your/our property…educate the community and members…if rules aren’t being followed address them…

• somebody mentioned “trad clinics”…probably better called best practices for our community…for all types of climbers and user groups…the SCC should come up with poster/flyers that outline ethics, accepted practices, etc...

• website will need a significant amount of updating/revamping to address these initiatives…and to draw traffic to the website…could be cross posted to heavy traffic sites like mountainproject.com, access fund, etc…these could also begin to build membership…

• probably needs to be some discussion with board members about “terms”, responsibilities, outlined duties, etc…

• the issue of transparency came up a number of times at the meeting…that should outline that fact the members want/deserve to be informed (as able) to the happenings with the SCC…that doesn’t mean that all details need to be shared…just shared as they are available…this also provides an opportunity to “sell” the organization and drive membership…

• Volunteers/”City-centric” came up during the meeting…the SCC needs to have a strong presence across the membership area… locally…local volunteers can assist in making that presence known and communicated…this seems to be happening very well in Chattanooga…spread the love…ask and seek out volunteers to help drive the organization…

• Meeting/Community forums…needs to be a regular occurring item…maybe spread across the membership area…these can also be focused on a regular topic and tie into SCC ideas/ethics/best practices…

• Lead by Example…

Deep Creek

• No remaining question…although I do have a concern.. .there are only (according the SCC website) parking for 26 cars (not 70 as mention at meeting)…this poses a potential problem for future access if this parking area is indeed shared with another user group such as hikers…especially if the area grows in popularity for climbers and hikers….in hindsight the larger lot should have been purchased to allow the parking area to grow as needed…

• Corrected history should be updated on the history of Deep Creek which goes back before 2000’s. Routes were done (probably) as early as 1980’s…for sure in 1990’s when Chris Watford and Eddie Whittemore did routes there

Yellow Bluff

• Need to be walked and addressed…some routes will be to be chopped…I personally don’t know the history but there are people who do…save the history at OUR crag…

Tallulah Gorge

• An action group to begin discussion with TG rangers to plan future access with/without falcons…possibly opening up other climbing areas…and closures for close proximity to falcons (instead of entire gorge for climbers)…NC seems to have a good system for this…

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
Paul Barnes wrote:If you live and climb in Tn, Al, or Georgia...do you know your State or Area rep?...see them out at the crag lately? Do you feel like they represent you and your interests well?
Nope.
No.
...and...
3 out of 13 ain't bad, riiight?
So, no to the third question as well.

There needs be more (ATL and BHM climbing populations are exploding) and better (qualified, present, and engaged) coverage, by the SCC, away from Chatt or the "in" crag at the moment....if they are to tout stewardship of those areas.

Jeff Mekolites wrote:SCC Organization • Whether the SCC board wants to or not the SCC organization has to take a stance on ethics – doesn’t have to be agreed on by each and every board member but a SCC ethics idea has to be developed…if we don’t take action now, we’ll have to settle for nothing later…
This sums it up for me.
How can any self-respecting climber sit by and watch as un-educated people spoil climbing, trample nature, etc. and not do something?
I concur, "best practices" is the better term.
Hopefully, the SCC takes a position, given it's strong social appeal and influence, that helps to correct a broken path.
A stance on ethics, while sticky, needs to be made public such that the new wave understands the 50+ year history and style that has come to represent climbing the sunny south.
Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Here is some language being CONSIDERED as far as a stance by the SCC on ethics / best practices.

"The SCC shall preserve the ecological and recreational value and all other unique characteristics of SCC managed property. The SCC shall, to the best of it's ability, follow the guidelines set out in Standard 12 of the Land Trust Standards and Practices to implement a “program of responsible stewardship for the land it holds in fee for conservation purposes.”

Before any route development is permitted on SCC land, an assessment shall be made to determine the climbing history of the cliff. This is important so previously established routes will not be erased by inadvertently being retro bolted. New development shall consider the long standing ethic of the crag. The SCC acknowledges that while new routes provide opportunities for recreation, there is a point at which route/bolt density degrade the natural beauty of the resource, so the balance of recreation and conservation must be considered.

No bolts shall be added or removed from an SCC crag without written permission from the SCC. No new trails shall be added on SCC property without documented permission from the SCC.

Whenever violations of this policy are discovered, the SCC will take Corrective Actions in the form of carefully removing any added unauthorized bolts and/or replacing any removed bolts and hangers."

Thoughts? Comments?...once again we seem to have lots of lurkers but not many voices. If you wanna be heard on this stuff....the time is now. SPEAK UP!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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