The Cutting Edge: Which Discipline Reigns Supreme?

In each discipline of our sport, there exists an elite class of climbers, those who build on the successes of previous generations, those who seek to push beyond the limit of what is believed to be possible. If we were to compare, for example, boulderers and free soloists, which group's recent achievements are most impressive? Or to look at it from another angle, if the current elite all disappeared, whose accomplishments would take the longest to be matched? Is it alpinism, speed, sport, trad, bouldering, free solo, or perhaps some other breed?

It would take the longest to recreate alex honnold, imo. Followed closely by the 14 and 13+ trads, then the sport hardman stuff. I imagine Uli Steck alpine is somewhere in there, but I have no idea how hard his solo climbs are.

You really think it would take longer for someone to climb 14a trad than to establish 15b?

The difficulty of a .14a trad route is not the most difficult, it is actually finding a gear route with just enough there to go at that grade. Nearly impossible in areas like indian creek. Where a .15b route just comes down to training. with so many kids coming up and climbing stronger than ever I think the next 10 years we'll see a flurry of .15's going down. Gear routes that is a different story. you can get strong but many people, especially kids today just dont seem to have as much desire for hard gear as they do sport.
Bouldering v15/16 is right there as well. Not that it's not impossible but incredibly difficult to find a section of rock with just enough to make it possible. often there is too much and come in at a lower grade.
Alpine is a whole different beast where there are still incredibly difficult routes going up in capsule style climbing. Fast and light is very impressive but borders on more dangerous than difficult. perfect storm when they both reach a pinnacle. I feel like the most impressive achievements lately have been things like Yosemite triple crown by honnold or Tommy and Alex traverse of Fitz Roy massif. the Dawn Wall.

Alexander Blum wrote:You really think it would take longer for someone to climb 14a trad than to establish 15b?

Absolutely. Like the other poster mentioned, just finding a 5.14 trad route will probably take longer than finding a 5.15. Then you have to test each gear placement, well not test so much as fiddle with to find the best gear possible, while limiting your rack, then finding your perfect racking order.

Then you must train physically, and battle your mind over and over and over on the route. Telling yourself that #3 stopper you had to blind place is going to hold for your next 10ft if the wall throws you off. I think the mental game is the most difficult portion. The 14a trad video below looks more intense than anything else I can name off the top of my head, and it is originally a sport route that the guy had lots of experience on before even attempting it on gear.

youtube.com/watch?v=qeQUIYz…

Crazy! Best part is that he still gets the style points by blowing the chalk off his hands no matter how taxed he is!

In my opinion alpine climbing is truly far superior to any single pitch climbing or any pure rock climbing in general. The sheer talent across the board it requires to climb hard ice and mixed terrain at altitude for extended periods of time with little rest is unequalled by the physical and mental challenges of other disciplines. In the last decade the sheer magnitude of long remote and difficult routes is immense. The number of people that can climb WI6 and above M7 is limited and yet even more so at altitude. Feats of this caliper are unbelievable.

That being said if you look at the single most unbelievable feats, Alex's honnold's solo's wouldn't likely be matched for some time. In hard sport, trad and speed climbing there are several people of the same caliber. Even in alpine climbing, while the name Ueli Steck is popular, he is not the only one climbing at that level. Consider his recent loss of the Matterhorn speed record as an example. There is not really another living person that really compares to Alex Honnold, especially considering the recent loss of Dean.

rock + ice + skiing + soloing = skimountaineering... That's a lot of disciplines to learn and master!

Eliot Augusto wrote: Absolutely. Like the other poster mentioned, just finding a 5.14 trad route will probably take longer than finding a 5.15.

At the moment there are more estabishled 5.14 trad routes than 5.15b sport routes. So why should it be harder to find a 5.14 route that goes on gear, than a 5.15b route?

There are also much more people in the world who have climbed 5.14 trad, than who have climbed 5.15b sport. Considering that there are more sport climbers than trad climbers in the world, i am pretty sure that 5.14 trad would go down before 5.15b sport.

MalcolmX wrote: At the moment there are more estabishled 5.14 trad routes than 5.15b sport routes. So why should it be harder to find a 5.14 route that goes on gear, than a 5.15b route? There are also much more people in the world who have climbed 5.14 trad, than who have climbed 5.15b sport. Considering that there are more sport climbers than trad climbers in the world, i am pretty sure that 5.14 trad would go down before 5.15b sport.

Any idea how many 5.14 trad routes are out there? I mean routes that were first climbed in trad, not sports routes that have been climbed with trad gear.

Rollerblading.

As for climbing, the mental side of soloists (rock or alpine) is unreal. That is a more exclusive club than the power and technique of elite climbers using protection.

One thing I've seen pointed out before is that its useful to look at how successful people in one discipline are at switching to another.

With that in mind, it seems apparent to me that there are several examples of people who were primarily or exclusively sport climbers making the switch to high-level alpinism and trad climbing, such as the Huber brothers, Matt Segal and David Lama. On the other hand, not too many people from an exclusive trad/alpine background end up becoming top sport climbers (Ron Kauk comes to mind as a possible exception, but it can be argued the sport grades he climbed weren't quite elite).

That said, I'm sure it's true that the people who make the jump from sport to scary alpine and trad stuff are the people with the mental strength and desire to do so, which a lot of sport climbers don't have. Conversely, a lot of trad climbers who could be elite at sport climbing might also just not have the desire.

.14a trad < .15b sport

Taylor-B. wrote:rock + ice + skiing + soloing = skimountaineering... That's a lot of disciplines to learn and master!

I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but ski mountaineers hardly have to be "masters" of rock & ice... how many routes can you think of that require harder than an ability to climb WI/AI4 and/or 5.8?

Eliot Augusto wrote: Absolutely. Like the other poster mentioned, just finding a 5.14 trad route will probably take longer than finding a 5.15. Then you have to test each gear placement, well not test so much as fiddle with to find the best gear possible, while limiting your rack, then finding your perfect racking order. Then you must train physically, and battle your mind over and over and over on the route. Telling yourself that #3 stopper you had to blind place is going to hold for your next 10ft if the wall throws you off. I think the mental game is the most difficult portion. The 14a trad video below looks more intense than anything else I can name off the top of my head, and it is originally a sport route that the guy had lots of experience on before even attempting it on gear. youtube.com/watch?v=qeQUIYz…

One problem with really hard trad in the 5.14+ range is I notice they all have their gear memorized and know exactly every spot and what piece to use. They even have them pre-clipped to the rope in alot of cases.

At that point is it truly a trad climb? To me if you have every single piece memorized and preped it is no more than a sport route that just happens to have questionable bolts in some area for the mental aspect.

divnamite wrote: Any idea how many 5.14 trad routes are out there? I mean routes that were first climbed in trad, not sports routes that have been climbed with trad gear.

I would guess that the majority of the trad routes in areas where you climb predominantly trad. Nevertheless, these routes have been usually practiced to death while top roping before trying it trad, so it does not make a really but a difference. But in the end, it is pretty irrelevant, because the question was never if a 5.14a trad climb is established ground up, without toproping and without using preplaced gear to practice it.

MalcolmX wrote: I would guess that the majority of the trad routes in areas where you climb predominantly trad. Nevertheless, these routes have been usually practiced to death while top roping before trying it trad, so it does not make a really but a difference. But in the end, it is pretty irrelevant, because the question was never if a 5.14a trad climb is established ground up, without toproping and without using preplaced gear to practice it.

I'm just questioning your statement that there are more 5.14 trad routes out there than 5.15 sports. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I just have my doubt.

Last time I heard, Chris Sharma alone established over 10 routes harder at 5.15.

There are two 5.14 trad routes just in NH that I know of.

divnamite wrote: I'm just questioning your statement that there are more 5.14 trad routes out there than 5.15 sports. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I just have my doubt. Last time I heard, Chris Sharma alone established over 10 routes harder at 5.15.

There are atleast 21 5.14 trad routes in england alone:
rockfax.com/databases/resul…
which is in the same range as 5.15b climbs in the whole world. Add to that number sport routes that have been done trad and you probably have more 5.14 trad routes in england than 5.15 routes in the world.

IMHO... The recent free ascent of Dawn Wall will stand for some time before getting repeated. Really hard big wall climbing just stands out. That project required so much to complete, and such special climbers with the vision and commitment to see it through.

A close 2nd would be the Alpine guys, where projects are only possible during weather windows.

Crushing single pitch, solo, and speed all seem fairly accomplish able in a season or three.

Eliot Augusto wrote: Absolutely. Like the other poster mentioned, just finding a 5.14 trad route will probably take longer than finding a 5.15. Then you have to test each gear placement, well not test so much as fiddle with to find the best gear possible, while limiting your rack, then finding your perfect racking order.

Uhhh, as a NRG local (where that video is filmed), I can attest that there are at least half a dozen potential gear-protected headpoint routes within ten miles of here that would clock in between 14a-14+. It would actually be much more difficult to find a 5.15 sport route here.

5.14 cracks? Very rare. 5.14 gear-protected faces? Less rare.