Red tags - How long is too long?

I find the whole red tagging thing just so you can get an FA kind of silly and lame(red tagging because it is still being cleaned and has loose/dangerous stuff, or isn't fully bolted yet, etc is another story).

If it were something that mattered to your career (i.e. you are one of the 10 people actually making a legit living by climbing 5.15), then I might feel differently, but something clocking in below the extreme cutting edge of the day? Lame.

Regardless of my feelings of it being lame, I'll respect the tag for a season. After that, if the route is on public property, I feel no obligation to stay off it.

Whats red tagging? Is it like tick marks? Or leaving draws all over the place until crags resemble jungle gyms? Red tagging is not respectable at all. Just because you bolted a route does not mean you own it. It should be open game for anyone to try. If someone stronger comes along and sends it before you then so be it.

And123 wrote:Whats red tagging? Is it like tick marks? Or leaving draws all over the place until crags resemble jungle gyms? Red tagging is not respectable at all. Just because you bolted a route does not mean you own it. It should be open game for anyone to try. If someone stronger comes along and sends it before you then so be it.

Are you asking a question here. Seems like you know the answer. Part of the problem with rape bolting, if you had to actually climb a route to bolt it this would be a moot point.

Will S wrote:I find the whole red tagging thing just so you can get an FA kind of silly and lame(red tagging because it is still being cleaned and has loose/dangerous stuff, or isn't fully bolted yet, etc is another story). If it were something that mattered to your career (i.e. you are one of the 10 people actually making a legit living by climbing 5.15), then I might feel differently, but something clocking in below the extreme cutting edge of the day? Lame. Regardless of my feelings of it being lame, I'll respect the tag for a season. After that, if the route is on public property, I feel no obligation to stay off it.

Since this is in the sport forum seems like your first comment is moot. But I totally agree with you if someone is working a route ground up. The red tag could be seen as a warning of an incomplete route.

On your second comment, if your a pro climber bolting routes to gain status for your sponsor. I should think all bets are off if another pro climber beats you to the FA that's business, cut throat.

To the OP if someone hasn't been actively working a project or they haven't sent after a couple of months of trying game on. To me this is part of the problem with sport climbing disregarding the rules of climbing.

What people have long confused as an ethics debate IMO should have been laid down as a rules debate. You don't IMO have the right to steal a FA from some bolder more capable climber by rape bolting. If you had to climb the route to bolt it the FA would either happen right away or soon after. If someone gets some bolts in on lead but hasn't gotten a redpoint I would say give them a month to work it 2 at the most. If someone gets in over their heads and can't finish a route they shouldn't expect to have years to get good enough to claim the FA.

If it's a proj. it doesn't matter how long. Respect!

Brad "Stonyman" Killough wrote:If it's a proj. it doesn't matter how long. Respect!

Not saying I wouldn't give someone a fair amount of time to work on something but.

I have seen it posted on here a couple of times. In reference to respecting old school FA's. That if some bad ass free soloist showed up in a place like the Needles of S. Dak. they would have claimed all of the routes. Thus leaving nothing for the rest of us to safely climb. That didn't happen of course.

Now imagine a new sport climbing area. Over the first couple of years a hand full of locals establish a fair number of climbs. Then a couple of sponsored climbers roll in and in 2 seasons establish the same number of routes. Thus leaving very little left for the future. This did happen to some extent in the Mount Rushmore area. No disrespect to those sponsored climbers they did what they felt was right at the time.

So whats to stop someone from coming into an area and bolting up a large number of climbs and then expecting everyone to leave them sit for a long period of time. That's what the OP's post sounded like to me.

highnoonhilltopper wrote: So if you bolt a route and red tag it, can i put another bolt next to each of yours and then send? Do we see the problem here?

That's fricking hilarious.

Tim McCabe wrote: Not saying I wouldn't give someone a fair amount of time to work on something but. I have seen it posted on here a couple of times. In reference to respecting old school FA's. That if some bad ass free soloist showed up in a place like the Needles of S. Dak. they would have claimed all of the routes. Thus leaving nothing for the rest of us to safely climb. That didn't happen of course. Now imagine a new sport climbing area. Over the first couple of years a hand full of locals establish a fair number of climbs. Then a couple of sponsored climbers roll in and in 2 seasons establish the same number of routes. Thus leaving very little left for the future. This did happen to some extent in the Mount Rushmore area. No disrespect to those sponsored climbers they did what they felt was right at the time. So whats to stop someone from coming into an area and bolting up a large number of climbs and then expecting everyone to leave them sit for a long period of time. That's what the OP's post sounded like to me.

Understood. Good point.

Monomaniac wrote:I agree, one year is about right for "normal" routes. However, climbing history is full of FA's that took many seasons or even years to complete, so if the developer is still actively working the route, I think the honorable thing is to let them have it until they send or give up.

What constitutes working a route?

If I am bolting ground up, I'll use a "red tag" to inform others the route is not finished to two rap able anchors. Then it's their choice. What Killis said...I've had a couple routes "bolt raped" where I had posted progress on MP...so what?

The rock does not belong to you.

Anything longer than 12 months, and it is fair game for anybody.

Where I am from we've had red tags up for years and years and nobody cares since there is so much to do. If your red tag is still on your route after a year I'll just go bolt my own route so I can have the FA experience. My question is, what happens when you get belayed by a climber who is better than you and can send your route? Do you buy them a beer if they call take? Red tags are only assured to stay on routes at my home crag if you can find a newbie willing to stand around all day while you hangdog.

Stich wrote:I'm sorry, but did anyone, anywhere, at any time give a remote shit about who got the FA on a sport route? Huh? No, that sort of thing isn't even usually recorded. The whole red tag issue is completely stupid. I never tagged any of the routes I bolted. It never occurred to me to care about it.

+1. Red tags are egotistical.

^^^. If I see a project (which we rarely do around here) that looks like a good route, just climb it like anything else; who needs to know. Let the bolter get the FA if they want, but rock is rock.

I feel like if you don't bolt routes you probably can't complain about red tags, ( I know the option said he bolts) In just glad someone else ponied up hundreds of dollars in hardware for me to climb on :) so what if wanting your name in a book is egotistical, now if someone else wanted to bolt it... I'd imagine if the tag is still red don't climb it! (Fwiw I dont bolt ...yet)

More importantly there was an accident at the New fairly recently when someone in a guided group bailed off a route and the bolt they bailed off pulled out. The route had been red tagged because of this bad bolt. Dunno what guide lets a client on a red tagged route.

Holy thread resurrection. I have played the game. If I put in days of work bolting, cleaning a route and $, I would like to be the first one to free it. If I feel it's too hard for me to do in a reasonable amount of time (1 season), then I would open it to others to try. I personally find it rewarding to put in lots of work creating a route and then free climbing it. At the same time I do feel the pressure to send the route quickly as I know others want to try it, luckily I usually get it done quickly.
If someone else has red tagged a route for a long time, it does not bother me, because I know the work that goes into developing a new route, and I am fine with giving them their time on the route. I will just go climb something else or bolt my own route. Plenty of rock out there, and not many people willing to put in the work and $ to develop new routes.

Oh yeah I did resurect this my bad, im bored outta my skull and ventured into the sport forum, didn't realize 2 year old stuff is on the first page lol

Red tags are stupid and people should ignore them. It is only people with egos who care about them. If it is there and someone can climb it let them.

The day you put red tape on something and walk away imo you just lost the FA, at least imo you are artificially putting an FA on it.

What if I walked along a cliff with a top of 5.5s and stuck a piece of red tap every 10ft... am i really getting the FA on all those routes? No it just means that i am stopping others from climbing it.

Like Zacks and Highlander said, What a lot of you are ignoring is the fact that route development is expensive. Not to mention to properly clean a route takes a lot of time.

Imagine you spent a few hundred dollars and weeks of your free time building a beautiful sand castle. Then when you walked away one day someone else just walked up put a stick on top of that castle. They got their picture taken, and got put on the front page of a magazine and got all the credit for building such a beautiful sand castle.

That sand castle was your pride and joy, and it hurts when someone else takes all the credit...

ViperScale wrote:Red tags are stupid and people should ignore them. It is only people with egos who care about them. ..

That attitude shows likely ignorance of the new routing process and a dick personality. Equipping and prepping a route can take a huge amount of work (and quite a bit of money). It is completely disrespectful of that work and the persons creative vision to just go and prematurely jump all over it without them indicating it is OK. Just from a safety standpoint it is stupid to ignore a red tag. The tag often means more than simply stay off because it is a project. It could indicate incomplete bolting or that some of the bolts are inferior temporary bolts used for cleaning, loose blocks that still need to be trundled etc.

The first thing to do if you think a red tag has been on too long is to go look for, scrub up and equip your own line. Second is speak to the person who put it there and ask what is up. There may be a very good reason they have been delayed or they may be fine with you taking over the project. Somebody would have to be really greedy with multiple projects, not seriously working or making no attempts to get out do do so for quite a while for me to just snag it on them. The only other way I might jump in is an extreme case of incompetency where they refuse to take any advise from the community and are well known to totally botch things and some super classic would be destroyed. That would be a very extreme case though and be for reason of saving something rather than snagging an FA.

I'm kind of with Mike on this one. What's lost by respecting a red tag? Are you out of rock to climb? Have you sent everything else? You don't see any new routes you could develop yourself? I suggest you look past those tags and go find your own vision. It might just be an ego stroke, but getting to name the route and claim FFA are pretty cool. Stealing that glory isn't criminal, but it a real dick move by my measure. I respect those tags, (though I rarely see them climbing in NM and OK), weather they guard a project, or warn of an incomplete route, either way... I see more climbing I can do around the bend and leave them to strive for their own glory.