Is leaving your dog at the base of multipitch climb really Animal abuse?

Oh yes, my dog is so vicious, she will lick you to death. I worked door to door for two years, it's not hard to identify a vicious dog. There is one other climb at this crag that anyone ever does and it is before the climb we were at on the approach trail. If any other parties wanted to do the route we were on and were scared off by my "vicious" dog then it's probably best they stay off of our route anyways. I'm so glad you were able to analyze the situation from your armchair though captain.

It takes two crag babies to appease my dog.

DrRockso wrote:Oh yes, my dog is so vicious, she will lick you to death. I worked door to door for two years, it's not hard to identify a vicious dog. There is one other climb at this crag that anyone ever does and it is before the climb we were at on the approach trail. If any other parties wanted to do the route we were on and were scared off by my "vicious" dog then it's probably best they stay off of our route anyways. I'm so glad you were able to analyze the situation from your armchair though captain.

You're completely missing the point. It's not about this specific cliff or the routes. It's not about you knowing that your dog isn't vicious. And no, it's not always easy to identify a vicious dog.

Say a dog is running toward me at full speed, barking its head off. Is s/he a friendly dog running up to say hi and lick me to death or an enraged animal that is going for my neck? I have a second or two to decide whether or not to crack the animal's skull with a rock or cuddle it. What do I do? (Incidentally, this is precisely what happened to me once at Skaha, but it was two dogs running toward me. Dogs are not allowed at Skaha, btw - they scare the big horn sheep.)

The point is no one knows your animal the way you do. Doesn't matter if she's sweet and affectionate. You're no where to be seen and there's this unattended dog at the cliff. You really don't see how that can negatively affect someone? You don't see how you're imposing your animal on someone without their consent? You don't see how this is incredibly selfish?

What's the most common thing a dog owner says after their dog bites someone? "Gee, s/he's never done that before!"

Sir chuffs alot wrote: You are completely missing the point. If you move back to where you were born this would not be a problem. The problem is that people move to the the wild west and then want to put what already lived here in a cage. Just go home, and stop imposing your will on the wild west you import. This is climbing, and rules are based on tradition. Everyone want's to impose their will on each other, this is the human condition. So just like the first ascension rule, since you complainers are recent imports, you get no say. Deal with it or go to the gym where dogs are not allowed.

Chuffy,
Unless you lived in California when it was still a part of Mexico you have no right to tell anyone to go home. The "wild west?" Give me a fucking break.

sure so are the gear bags at the base of climbs, clearly no one is coming back for either

I think the original point of this thread was to discuss if leaving a domestic dog alone in a public wilderness area is unsafe for or unkind to the dog.
It's really not about whether climbers like dogs, if climbers like others telling them what to do (or not do) or any of the other offshoots from the OP.

I personally think it is unwise to leave a dog alone under those circumstances. My labrador is perfectly at home in the woods but I would not leave him unattended. While everything would likely be fine, much can happen. The dog can confront other dogs, who may not be friendly, wildlife, unstable 2 legged creatures, rock fall or might just wander off & have difficulty getting back. Dogs are not wild animals and have been bred to depend on humans in some vital ways (food for example) that wild animals/wolves do not. Most dogs don't need coddled but they need to be handled with understanding that they are domestic animals.

Just my 2c worth....

youtube.com/watch?v=DSCUPZZ…

See mountain goats would make much better climbing pets.

I wish I could bring my dogs and let them roam, but they are simply too nice for the most part and my regular bouldering patch simply has too many non climbers and the occasional scumbag, i really wouldn't feel right letting my dog roam free. The place is technically private property, but it has been used as a local park for trail runners, dog walkers, bicyclists, and climbers for the past few decades.

On the other hand I've seen a guy who brings his dog to the same place and the dog in question is very well trained and very independent, it does not approach strangers for the most part, it roams around off leash and combs through the surrounding hills chasing rabbits.

I can't say that it is a prescriptive argument, because not all dogs are the same. Some can be left alone and will always come back and are capable of avoiding strangers, but most dogs simply don't get enough training or experience in busy human environments to be safe to themselves and to people around them.

I think a place similar to the sierras would be alright for a dog to roam, somewhat remote, not alot of people going to be out there, and the ones that are out there are not there to be jerks, also not forested so its easier to spot your animal from a few pitches up.

I'll also add that in my line of work I often see or hear at least a dozen dogs per week, but often 2-3x that many in their normal house setting. The vast majority of dogs in american homes, or at least in southern california, are untrained, and unacclimated to human society. Another way to put it is that the majority of dog owners treat their dogs like a piece of furniture,they're just one more accessory in the modern american household - they don't give them enough attention, they don't walk them routinely, and they don't use any means to curb their reactions to strangers. I would say that 95/100 dogs in american households are essentially untrained, and the owner lives in a constant struggle/panic to keep their animals from attacking/barking/jumping on whoever comes to the door.

Knowing this it's easy to see why dogs are frequently a problem. Even for people who go hiking with their dogs, they can be a problem to people and to other dogs. My dog has been bitten several times by other dogs on a popular set of switchbacks around here. Letting a dog roam around offleash or even sit somewhere unattended is something that less than 1% of dog owners should ever do, because it requires a high degree of successful training, and the animals own experience that allows them to be safe in human environments.

I used to always bring my dog to the crag. He was well behaved and always came when I called him, but I never should have named him Rock :)

Again, this post is supposed to be a discussion about whether leaving dogs alone in a wilderness/public area is mistreating the dog.
It's not a thread about whether climbers like dogs at the crags, bitching about bad dog behavior (or bad climber behavior) or any off the other sidetracks this discussion has taken.

the OP was concerned about the dog's well being, not whether climbers are inconvenienced or annoyed.

John Ski wrote:I used to always bring my dog to the crag. He was well behaved and always came when I called him, but I never should have named him Rock :)

LOL. Really funny. :)

There was a serious message behind my humor. You're at the crag, dislodge a rock, and you yell ROCK! A climber knows to take cover, but a dog does not. Worst yet, it may be tied and unable to move to a safe spot.

If dogs had known we would become such control freaks with leash laws etc, they would have stayed wild like the wolves. However badly behaved dogs dont belong at the cliff, often badly behaved dogs belong to badly behaved humans . These humans often have badly behaved children as well.

John Ski wrote:There was a serious message behind my humor. You're at the crag, dislodge a rock, and you yell ROCK! A climber knows to take cover, but a dog does not. Worst yet, it may be tied and unable to move to a safe spot.

I agree. See my 5/15 post above.

My dog is named "Slack"....

Just bring a poodle; either way, you'll be good.

I was once at Joshua Tree climbing Right On and I had my dog tied up with water near the climb and two climbers came over and started kicking my dog when I was on the third pitch . It was not right, my dog had lots of water and I use to climb Right On in a hour so he was not going to be there long. However having climber walk by and kick and throw rocks at a dog is wrong ...

that's awful! those climbers should be the ones getting rocks thrown at them

It's not abuse to leave a well-trained dog unattended for a couple hours. What, you think it's just going to spontaneously die if it's not being continuously petted for more than 5 minutes? Is it abuse to leave my dog unattended while I take a shit?

I was amazed to see several parties with dogs left unattended, some growling and barking at other people, at Black Velvet Wall in Red Rock. Bullshit I say. The problem with human feces is bad enough. This was the first visit in 20 years when I took notice of the sheer amount of dog shit everywhere I walked in Red Rock. The first two miles of trail back into Icebox even smelled of dog shit.

I'm a dog owner, have been for most of my life, and hope that in places like that dogs are simply banned.

I have a sweet climbing dog. Her capacity for suffering is nowhere near a human's. I doubt that she is even conscious, which means she can't feel any pain. I understand the human psychological tendency to project our inward experience on other animals because their behavior is somewhat analogous to ours, but if you have ever had a dog, you would know that there's barely anything (if anything at all) rattling around in their heads. If one can't find a dog sitter, or one wants to get their dog some exercise on the approach, there's no good reason not to tie the dog up at the base of a climb for a few hours, unless wildlife is a threat. One child's tear is worse than 10,000 hours of dogs whining for their masters. I would hope that detractors consider the life a climbing dog lives compared to its wild wolf counterparts in terms of suffering vs. comfort. This is a clear example of bleeding-hearts looking for an opportunity to vent their victim frustration in every possible channel.