Hiring a guide considered "weak"?

Old Sag deserves the best.

I don't subscribe to the "pure ego" claim. I think it possible that embracing a host of uncertainties that could be easily bypassed is just as much a case of pure ego.

I guided for a few years way BITD---I was actually a minor player and very early member of the AMGA. In that guiding role I did for quite a few others what I just described not wanting for myself. In all cases these were busy people, some of who could follow harder than 5.10a at a time when 5.10d was almost the top of the scale, but who didn't have the time to invest in perfecting leading skills anywhere near their following abilities. A number of them were accomplished in other fields far beyond what most of us will ever achieve at anything. They loved climbing, but it was ultimately just a piece of their lives.

And so, they hired guides both for cragging and for (much) longer routes on big cliffs and alpine environments. They got tremendous satisfaction from their accomplishments, and I got a lot of pleasure helping them realize their goals. I honestly can't see any sense in which "ego" played more or less of a role in what they did and in what any climber, guided or not does.

I might also add that those of us who proclaim an interest in the uncertainties of climbing nonetheless indulge in all kinds of "ego-gratifying" practices that eliminate some of the intrinsic unknowns. We consult guidebooks, we use information from this site, we speak with others and get beta, and generally do everything possible short of hiring a guide to reduce the unknown. Given these proclivities, perhaps we should not be quick to deprecate anyone who perhaps makes more choices, but not essentially different choices, about how much uncertainty they wish to embrace.

This thread remains me of conversations and attitudes of business colleagues and successful friends. The whole "I make a shit ton of money and live in big house so why can't everyone else?" thing feels just like "I don't need a guide so why does everyone else?"

rgold wrote:I've got no axe to grind by the way, just reporting what I read on the relevant sites. It still seems that Ryan's statement that the euro standard corresponds to US 11d and the AMGA standards are at 11b/11c are off base. On the issue of experienced climbers hiring guides, I agree with the sentiment, "who cares what anyone else thinks?" But Old Sag doesn't say explicitly that social pressure is what gives him pause--there is at least a suggestion that his doubts are internally generated. I totally get it for folks who are traveling and have no partners. But personally, all the advantages of using a guide are precisely why I usually wouldn't want to do it. All that "extra" stuff, the approaches, the descents, the route choices---the full complement of uncertainties---and the epics, screw-ups, and even the abysmal failures that sometimes come with that territory, is actually what I like about climbing. Yes, embracing those uncertainties will almost always be inefficient and may in some cases be more dangerous. Every now and then you don't even get to the start of the climb until it is too late to begin. More often you're just late, and then you may be exposed to late afternoon weather (if you decide to carry on) and may have to face a descent in the dark or even a bivouac. Looking back, these are the things I remember. The climbs that went quickly smoothly, great fun as they were at the time, have almost faded from memory. Let me be clear that I don't think of these preferences (or, if you wish, perversions) as being "stronger" than a "weaker" guided ascent. It is simply a matter of what the climbing experience is for me, and it is about a lot more than check mark in the margin of the guidebook. If, at heart, considerations like these are what are giving Old Sag pause, then the "weakness" formulation is a distraction. A guided climb is going to be a very different experience from an "un-guided" climb, whether or not the guide wants to take the risk of letting you lead. Just having someone who can respond to "when I get tired, you lead to the top" totally changes everything about the experience. I'm not saying one type of experience is better or worse than the other, but they are different, and each person will have to decide for themselves what it is they hope to get from their climbing days.

This... I couldn't have said it better myself. I climb for the sense of adventure and in general I find hiring a guide detracts from that. But to each his own...

Blommerz wrote:"But you also learn a lot of from failure." Not necessarily. You could just fail and not learn shit.....

Yes although that is not a sustainable long-term game plan... the mountains will eventually kill you if you do that.

coppolillo wrote:Cool--C Archibald...right on. Even if "all guides are great" (which ain't true!),

Guides are like everybody else in life. Some are incredibly awesome and some just plain suck...

Looks like this has indeed turned into a debate about what is a "guide", AMGA vs non-AMGA, SPI vs Rock Guide...

To the original question:

How is hiring a guide any different than dating a rope gun, offering up something in exchange for mentorship, paying for a "technique clinic", buying beta, etc? Transactional relationships...

rgold wrote:We consult guidebooks, we use information from this site, we speak with others and get beta, and generally do everything possible short of hiring a guide to reduce the unknown.

Exactly...

I'd hire Peter Croft as a guide in the blink of an eye... I'm actually planning to, but waiting until I have enough skill to really benefit from it...

Kent Richards wrote: I'd hire Peter Croft as a guide in the blink of an eye... I'm actually planning to, but waiting until I have enough skill to really benefit from it...

And you can hire him for private guiding for the bargain price of only $650/day. Unless you want a "big day." Then, it's only $800 per day. And I've thought about it.

sierramtnguides.com/?s=pete…

I have to be honest here, whenever I see someone being guided at the crags, I can't help to think how weak that is.

Whats more weak, when you see that the person being guided is pretty serious about the sport, and has really nice gear.

With all the "find a partner" resources available, you can't use the "no partner" excuse. I found someone to climb with in Peru with one day notice. Not to mention the all the climbing partners I've met on this fourm.

That's my opinion, and I'm sure its not just me that feels this way.People are to nice around here.

The reasons for hiring a guide are just as varied as why people climb. Climbing is just an activity so none of the reasons are any more or less valid than the others. Do what you want as long as you're not ruining the activity. If you feel more comfortable hiring a guide then do so and don't let somebody else's opinion determine how you experience climbing or life in general.

Just because you hire a guide does not necessarily remove the aspects of self-reliance, adventure, or accomplishment.

Having a more experienced partner does not make the weaker partner's ascent less valid unless they got hauled or hung all the way up. The style of the ascent doesn't change if you were guided or not. If someone hired a guide and the guest led the whole climb does that make the ascent less valid? I don't believe that the simple exchange of money somehow invalidates a person's ascent.

Sure you can find a free partner at the click of a button but you are only guessing as to there abilities. Whereas an AMGA certified guide has a peer reviewed level of technical knowledge, likely some customer satisfaction behind them, and a source of redress if they suck or injure you. What do you do if you go somewhere and go to climb with someone who's lied about their abilities, sucks as a belayer, and ruins your climbing day or worse, injures you? Probably nothing...

Climb-it wrote:I have to be honest here, whenever I see someone being guided at the crags, I can't help to think how weak that is. Whats more weak, when you see that the person being guided is pretty serious about the sport, and has really nice gear.

Aren't you just amazing that you can find partners and stuff.
What a judgmental and incredibly weak thinking point of view.

Jeff G. wrote: Aren't you just amazing that you can find partners and stuff. What a judgmental and incredibly weak thinking point of view.

I was just being honest. I'm sure many express the same feelings on the subject. At least most of the people I climb with would agree.

My post was aimed at reassuring the OP that his feeling on hiring a guide were warranted.

Just keeping it real people. Your peers are judging you.

Climb-it wrote:Your peers are judging you.

The irony is that someone who can make a rational choice to meet their objectives through hiring a guide probably wouldn't care what other climbers think about it... Some folks actually climb to satisfy themselves rather than satisfying others...

My GF and I just hired a guide last week for the first time. Been climbing for a couple years. We were in Puerto Rico for one day before heading to the Carribean. Since it wasn't a climbing vacation we didn't have gear so a guide with gear was nice to have. Since we didn't have a lot of time or a car, it was nice to be able to get a ride to and from the crag, and hike directly to the part of the cliffs that had the grades we wanted. After a couple warm ups on TR, I lead most of the rest of the climbs. Was able to get in 8 single pitch climbs. The guide leads 11's so no issues with climbing whatever we wanted since we do 9/10a. The guide is a developer of the Limestone cliffs so we got a lot of info on the area and he was a really nice guy and fun to hang out with. It was $150 per person and really worth it and worked out well for our situation. Big shoutout to ClimbingPR.com

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:Going with a guide does not preclude you leading the pitches you want to lead. It just means you don't get lost on the approach :)

Exactly. I climbed in the Bugs with Marc Piche' who was/is the co-author of the climbing guidebook. Talk about walking directly to the base of the route!

We swung leads and I got to lead all the crux pitches. Had a great time.

Of course it is, but weakness can be forgiven and overcome.

As a guide I say hire a guide.... Heck, hire me! Our insurance policy allows clients to guide, so lead if you want to, follow if you don't....