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Hiring a guide considered "weak"?

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256
climber pat wrote:Be sure to hire a guide qualified for the type of climbing you wish to do. In particular if you go with an AMGA guide and want to do multi-pitch climbing make sure you do not get a SPI certified guide because they are not allowed to guide multi-pitch without supervision. For multi-pitch you want an "Rock Guide" not a SPI guide or CWI. You can look and the AMGA's website to see what terrian various guides are allowed to guide in (AMGA guide sign an agreement to not guide beyond their certification) and what certifications a particular guide has.
Not entirely true. If a guide has taken the rock guide course then technically they can guide multi pitch terrain even though they are not a certified "rock guide" because they have received training for that type of terrain.
I know plenty of guides who just have an SPI that guide multi pitch rock and ice all the time and they are super competent climbers and some are way more experienced then some guy who just went out and took a bunch of AMGA courses. I think looking at a guides climbing resume, what the guide has done, level they climb at, and how many years they have been climbing, has more merit than a guide who just has a bunch of certifications but has only been climbing a few years and really has not done much. Experience matters.
Having said that, recent news from the AMGA is they are trying to crack down on guides guiding out of their scope and training, threatening to pull their AMGA membership if they guide outside their certification level.
Walt Barker · · Western NC · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 425

I re-locate....a lot. hiring a guide has been helpful when I don't have a trusted partner, especially when climbing in new terrain. Some days, I just want to get up high, chill, enjoy the mountains. When I have no partners, a guide is a good alternative. Also, I like to hire one every no and then, just to brush-up on the basics; one can never Know those too well.

Idaho Bob · · McCall, ID · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 757

I hired a local guide when my partner (who doesn't climb, but will belay) and I were in Pucon, Chile in March. The benefits: traveling only with harness, shoes and helmet; not wasting a day or two scoping out the locations and routes.
I really lucked out, my guide Cladio was Chile's national climbing champion in the 1990's. Cladio provided great tips and I did my first 5.10d as a result.

Crispy. · · Chicago · Joined May 2014 · Points: 70
Highlander wrote: Not entirely true. If a guide has taken the rock guide course then technically they can guide multi pitch terrain even though they are not a certified "rock guide" because they have received training for that type of terrain. I know plenty of guides who just have an SPI that guide multi pitch rock and ice all the time and they are super competent climbers and some are way more experienced then some guy who just went out and took a bunch of AMGA courses. I think looking at a guides climbing resume, what the guide has done, level they climb at, and how many years they have been climbing, has more merit than a guide who just has a bunch of certifications but has only been climbing a few years and really has not done much. Experience matters. Having said that, recent news from the AMGA is they are trying to crack down on guides guiding out of their scope and training, threatening to pull their AMGA membership if they guide outside their certification level.
Wait, let's get a couple of things straight here. If a guide has taken the rock guide course but has not passed the rock guide certification, they "technically" are NOT allowed to guide multi-pitch. Just because you have taken a class doesn't mean that you have actually learned anything. The point of the certification is to prove that you possess the knowledge to hold yourself out as a "rock guide."

That being said, you are 100% right that there are plenty of SPI certified guides out there who, not only guide above their certification, but are probably more competent than many "rock guide" certified guides. Experience totally matters!
Alicia Sokolowski · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 1,781

Going with a guide does not preclude you leading the pitches you want to lead. It just means you don't get lost on the approach :)

Seriously, though, I have friends that started as guides I hired for the day. I travel a lot, and sometimes (okay a lot of times) I'd rather pay for a great day out then spend my time terrified if this new internet friend will drop me.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Old Sag wrote:I don't know if there is a stigma with experienced climbers hiring a guide?
looking at your question, you are asking about experienced climbers. I would say the more experienced you are, the less likely you are to hire a guide (outside of taking a class on a specific skill).

Also in general it seems to me (and I know there are exceptions) that many guide shops seem to cater to beginners, not necessarily experienced climbers.

Then again the definition of "experienced climber" can be subjective. When I think experienced, I think self-sufficient, therefore little need to hire a guide...
Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256
Crispy. wrote: Wait, let's get a couple of things straight here. If a guide has taken the rock guide course but has not passed the rock guide certification, they "technically" are NOT allowed to guide multi-pitch. Just because you have taken a class doesn't mean that you have actually learned anything. The point of the certification is to prove that you possess the knowledge to hold yourself out as a "rock guide." That being said, you are 100% right that there are plenty of SPI certified guides out there who, not only guide above their certification, but are probably more competent than many "rock guide" certified guides. Experience totally matters!
It was explained to me by an AMGA instructor that guides who have taken the rock guide course and not taken the exam can guide multi pitch terrain because they have received training in that area. They are just not a certified rock guide, but are allowed to guide that terrain under AMGA guidelines. For many guides this is more practical than spending another $5K just to have a certification.
coppolillo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 70

While the AMGA is moving towards stricter terrain & supervision guidelines, they'll be phased in over the coming years and they're not currently enforced with non-accredited guide services at all. Accredited guide services will be expected to adhere to the TSG in the future, but right now it seems more strongly suggested than enforced.

At present in Colorado, and most other places, you do not need any certification whatsoever to guide--toprope, ice, multipitch, anything. You need a certificate/permit to cut hair at Great Clips, but nothing to guide Alexander's Chimney, Capitol Peak, or the Yellow Spur. If you work for a guide service that holds the permit to a particular area, you're good to go. When the TSG are fully implemented, then there will be an expectation of certified or trained guides working in the disciplines/terrain they're trained/certified for. No SPIs doing multipitch, no rock guides working on ice, etc. This will apply to AMGA-accredited guide services and hopefully land managers will only work with accredited services.

If anybody's interested in more detail, PM me and I can put you in touch with the folks actually working on this. Hopefully I've characterized the situation accurately and clearly, but let me know if anybody's interested in more detail...

Seems like we're moving towards a system in which guides adhere to a scope of practice policy, but for now--it's all over the map. Careful whom you hire. Certification is a great indication that a guide has a) studied relevant material and b) been examined by experienced instructors.

When choosing a guide I'd definitely ask about his/her experience, but I'd also try and get a word-of-mouth recommendation from somebody you trust.

The reasons given above by other posters are all great...getting out with a quality guide can be really productive and fun!

Hire a guide, Old Sag, go for it!

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Stagg54 wrote: looking at your question, you are asking about experienced climbers. I would say the more experienced you are, the less likely you are to hire a guide (outside of taking a class on a specific skill). Also in general it seems to me (and I know there are exceptions) that many guide shops seem to cater to beginners, not necessarily experienced climbers. Then again the definition of "experienced climber" can be subjective. When I think experienced, I think self-sufficient, therefore little need to hire a guide...
I go with Adirondack Mountain Guides. they're cool with me leading 4+ or any rock I sack up to lead. I'm experienced, fat and pay my guys more a day than a guide. For me it makes sense. I just want a safe reliable and fun to be around partner. I got too many people depending on me to f::k around. I call up Ian if my regular partners aren't around.
r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 25

Hiring guides is for the wealthy.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
coppolillo wrote:While the AMGA is moving towards stricter terrain & supervision guidelines, they'll be phased in over the coming years and they're not currently enforced with non-accredited guide services at all. Accredited guide services will be expected to adhere to the TSG in the future, but right now it seems more strongly suggested than enforced. At present in Colorado, and most other places, you do not need any certification whatsoever to guide--toprope, ice, multipitch, anything. You need a certificate/permit to cut hair at Great Clips, but nothing to guide Alexander's Chimney, Capitol Peak, or the Yellow Spur. If you work for a guide service that holds the permit to a particular area, you're good to go. When the TSG are fully implemented, then there will be an expectation of certified or trained guides working in the disciplines/terrain they're trained/certified for. No SPIs doing multipitch, no rock guides working on ice, etc. This will apply to AMGA-accredited guide services and hopefully land managers will only work with accredited services. If anybody's interested in more detail, PM me and I can put you in touch with the folks actually working on this. Hopefully I've characterized the situation accurately and clearly, but let me know if anybody's interested in more detail... Seems like we're moving towards a system in which guides adhere to a scope of practice policy, but for now--it's all over the map. Careful whom you hire. Certification is a great indication that a guide has a) studied relevant material and b) been examined by experienced instructors. When choosing a guide I'd definitely ask about his/her experience, but I'd also try and get a word-of-mouth recommendation from somebody you trust. The reasons given above by other posters are all great...getting out with a quality guide can be really productive and fun! Hire a guide, Old Sag, go for it!
Just what we need. More beaurocracy...
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
coppolillo wrote:While the AMGA is moving towards stricter terrain & supervision guidelines, they'll be phased in over the coming years and they're not currently enforced with non-accredited guide services at all. Accredited guide services will be expected to adhere to the TSG in the future, but right now it seems more strongly suggested than enforced. At present in Colorado, and most other places, you do not need any certification whatsoever to guide--toprope, ice, multipitch, anything. You need a certificate/permit to cut hair at Great Clips, but nothing to guide Alexander's Chimney, Capitol Peak, or the Yellow Spur. If you work for a guide service that holds the permit to a particular area, you're good to go. When the TSG are fully implemented, then there will be an expectation of certified or trained guides working in the disciplines/terrain they're trained/certified for. No SPIs doing multipitch, no rock guides working on ice, etc. This will apply to AMGA-accredited guide services and hopefully land managers will only work with accredited services. If anybody's interested in more detail, PM me and I can put you in touch with the folks actually working on this. Hopefully I've characterized the situation accurately and clearly, but let me know if anybody's interested in more detail... Seems like we're moving towards a system in which guides adhere to a scope of practice policy, but for now--it's all over the map. Careful whom you hire. Certification is a great indication that a guide has a) studied relevant material and b) been examined by experienced instructors. When choosing a guide I'd definitely ask about his/her experience, but I'd also try and get a word-of-mouth recommendation from somebody you trust. The reasons given above by other posters are all great...getting out with a quality guide can be really productive and fun! Hire a guide, Old Sag, go for it!
Just what we need. More beaurocracy...
Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130

It's not beaurocracy but rather implementation of a consistent standard with regards to scope of practice. Other professionals are held to similar standards so why are we even arguing about the scope of practice and standards working, professional guides are being held to? But the bottom line is if you feel the need to hire a guide, you should. Many reasons why you should have been illustrated above as well as some uninformed reasons not to.

Creed Archibald · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 1,016

I've never hired a guide and I can't imagine a situation when I ever would. I can see the point about traveling alone and wanting to secure a competent partner, but that has never applied to me. I plan my climbing trips with another person, and I don't travel for work.

I also feel that if I can't work out the logistics, approach, descent, etc., then I don't deserve to climb the route. That's just how I feel. I'd rather do the route in two years when I'm ready to manage everything than pay someone to haul my ass up it. Also, I want to have the experience with a friend or loved one, not a stranger.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Andy Hansen wrote: Many reasons why you should have been illustrated above as well as some uninformed reasons not to.
Curious - which reasons to not to hire a guide are you considering uninformed?
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Stagg54 wrote: Curious - which reasons to not to hire a guide are you considering uninformed?
How about this one, for starters:

richard miranda wrote:Hiring guides is for the wealthy.
Of course, "wealthy" is a subjective term.

Or this one:

C. Archibald wrote:I'd rather do the route in two years when I'm ready to manage everything than pay someone to haul my ass up it.
Every rope team is going to have a leader and a follower. Or swap leads. But I'd imagine it's rare that a guide "hauls" a client up a climb.
Brendan Magee · · Parker, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
coppolillo wrote:While the AMGA is moving towards stricter terrain & supervision guidelines, they'll be phased in over the coming years and they're not currently enforced with non-accredited guide services at all. Accredited guide services will be expected to adhere to the TSG in the future, but right now it seems more strongly suggested than enforced. At present in Colorado, and most other places, you do not need any certification whatsoever to guide--toprope, ice, multipitch, anything. You need a certificate/permit to cut hair at Great Clips, but nothing to guide Alexander's Chimney, Capitol Peak, or the Yellow Spur. If you work for a guide service that holds the permit to a particular area, you're good to go. When the TSG are fully implemented, then there will be an expectation of certified or trained guides working in the disciplines/terrain they're trained/certified for. No SPIs doing multipitch, no rock guides working on ice, etc. This will apply to AMGA-accredited guide services and hopefully land managers will only work with accredited services. If anybody's interested in more detail, PM me and I can put you in touch with the folks actually working on this. Hopefully I've characterized the situation accurately and clearly, but let me know if anybody's interested in more detail... Seems like we're moving towards a system in which guides adhere to a scope of practice policy, but for now--it's all over the map. Careful whom you hire. Certification is a great indication that a guide has a) studied relevant material and b) been examined by experienced instructors. When choosing a guide I'd definitely ask about his/her experience, but I'd also try and get a word-of-mouth recommendation from somebody you trust. The reasons given above by other posters are all great...getting out with a quality guide can be really productive and fun! Hire a guide, Old Sag, go for it!
+1 for this explanation.

Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with higher a guide to further your knowledge and education such as taking rock rescue course. It makes you a better climber. I also think guides can be greatly beneficial if you are new to the area and you want some inside knowledge and experience. However, guiding and the over commercialization of peaks like Everest is where I have an issue. Just because you have the money doesn't mean you should be there.
climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286
Highlander wrote: It was explained to me by an AMGA instructor that guides who have taken the rock guide course and not taken the exam can guide multi pitch terrain because they have received training in that area. They are just not a certified rock guide, but are allowed to guide that terrain under AMGA guidelines. For many guides this is more practical than spending another $5K just to have a certification.
According to the policies on the AMGA web page, a guide who has passed the rock guide test can guide multi-pitch under supervision of a certified guide. As I recall, it was not stated explicitely if the supervising guide had to be present or not. The policies are quite clear and strict. I don' t know anything about enforcement when violators are discovered. I have come across SPI guides guiding multi-pitch unsupervised and having a difficult time of it.

Personally, I think the SPI criteria and course work is not adequate for multi-pitch climbing. I know many SPI guides are way more competent than the SPI certification and I know some SPI guides are barely adequate for SPI work. As others have suggested, checking the resume is a good idea but keep in mind guiding is not the same as climbing with your climbing buddies; there are additional skills involved.

I am not particularly supportive of the AGMA's certification process as it makes it very difficult become a guide in areas that are not very popular and populated. There might not be any certified rock guide to supervise a aspriring guide. I am also concerned that the AMGA is trying to get a lock on the US guiding market which I am not sure is a good idea.

Back to my original point. I would not hire a SPI certified guide for multi-pitch especially if I had access to a rock guide. The rock guide program and apprenticeship is much much more robust than the SPI program. I would consider non AMGA guides depending upon their qualifications.
Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130
Stagg54 wrote: Curious - which reasons to not to hire a guide are you considering uninformed?
I feel that the information disseminated in this thread about the AMGA's regulatory standards are misconstrued and in some cases just plain wrong. I think Rob has outlined the AMGA's stance on guide certification, and where these guides operate, pretty well in his posts. The AMGA's website also clearly dictates guides' scope of practice as well.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
FrankPS wrote: How about this one, for starters: Of course, "wealthy" is a subjective term.
You are correct. It is very subjective.

However I would assert that hiring a guide on a regular basis is not something the average climber could afford. The going rate which, of course varies, seems to be something like 200-300/day.

Then again some climbers spend a lot of money to buy new gear, yet seem reluctant to spend a little money to learn how to use it...
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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