Tallulah Gorge Peregrines

Saved them from what, exactly? From being closed you will, no doubt, say. Well who's gonna save 'em from what happens to 'em once thy're open? Is open all that matters? Since I am limited now as to the number of posts I can make in a given time period, this may be a long one...but so was Dave's.

Access....sounds real good. It sells. It raises revenue. Fine. But let's take Steele as an example. Climbers start climbing there back in the day. All is well. Climbers start becoming a shitshow. Chandler Mt residents say..."uh uh...take that shit somewhere else"...and rightly so. (EVERYBODY in here will agree that single pitch craggin has now become a shitshow). So Steele remains "closed". Climbing still goes on there...people who know how to act and be stealthy and leave no trace still enjoy it with little or no issues. Then The SCC...knowing full well that climbing is a shitshow, and that the shitshow is not welcome on Chandler Mountain BUYS part of the cliff...and says "See how awesome we are...send us money". And the minions say "YAY SCC...here's some money." And then come the hordes, not content with the part of the property that the SCC purchased in a big hearty FUCK YOU to the residents of Chandler Mountain who, remember, don't want your shitshow there. BUT...the SCC's justification is "we own it now so we belong there"...send us s'more money. Bolts start goin in...to the left, to the right....errywhere. A nice little family moves in to the left. Their lil goats and chickens an dogs moving about freely. They've worked long and hard for yrs to put themselves in a position to buy their little slice of heaven in north Alabama. What doe the SCC do? they immediatley approach nice little family and suggest that they GIVE their part of the cliff to the SCC. WTF?...that's right...DONATE it to us for a tidy tax deduction. Little fmaily politely says...um...fuck off. Well it doesn't take long for the family to realize there's a shitshow goin on in their back yard. trespassers...with dogs fuckin with the family's dogs. SCC, of course, can't do anything about that because....you know....they're not the crag police. And only after the little family insists does the SCC post anything about where it's borders are and then they're butthurt as hell about having to do that. Um...entitled much? Sad thing is...little family's patriarch is a CLIMBER. So...even climber's can't tolerate the behavior of your rank and file. Saving the crags from closure you say. Well once you open em...who's gonna save 'em from YOU...and the shitshow that comes with ya?

Maybe...just maybe....buyin up crags that you admittedly can't police, and turning loose the hordes, whose ethics and behavior you admittedly can't control, is NOT the answer. Reckon?

In reply to Todd:

As I stated about 9 pages ago, I'm not on the board anymore, and in fact, I haven't been active at all in the SCC for the last 2 years, so I'm just up here in this weird place trying to play devil's advocate for both sides.

I don't think your idea is a bad one, but who determines what a "crack route" is? You? Would you like to answer to the entire climbing community why one route deserves bolts and another doesn't?

Of the 3 routes mostly fueling this fire:

The retro that Matthew bolted (not on SCC property) was an accident...was chopped...was rebolted by someone else.

The one in the Castle Rock fundraiser flyer (not on SCC property, but on property that the SCC leases) was not bolted by the SCC or anyone working on their behalf. It also doesn't appear to have been a retro, so you or someone else will have to decide for everyone whether or not it's a sport, mixed, or trad route, and whether or not lines that have been bolted should be chopped, even if they're not retros.

The one that was bolted at Yellow Bluff opening day (owned by the SCC, bolted by Chris Sierzant)...I personally think it would be a great idea and a nice gesture to chop it (IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY), but the FA himself doesn't seem to think it's a huge issue, so I'm torn about that.

In reply to Paul:

The biggest issue with Steele was not that climbers were a shitshow in general, it was the fact that they were traipsing through someone's tomato fields for lack of any other access to the cliff, and then still trespassing when they were actually AT the cliff. None of that is necessary now that we own it, although, of course, people are going beyond the boundary.

If you want to go back to the days when there were 100 climbers in the southeast, and every cliff was on private property, and there were no gyms or guidebooks, and people whispered about this place and that, and your buddy would photocopy his hand drawn topos for you...if you were super cool...then invent a time machine.

There are definitely ways to improve the current shitshow, if you are interested.

And...I am going to try very hard to stop looking at this thread, and in particular, stop responding to YOU. But I know I'm going to fail...

Oh it's not me you need to worry about. The SCC, and some local newspapers in Alabama as I understand it, are going to be hearing from the little family's Matriarch about what it's like to be the neighbor of an SCC property. Good luck trying to marginalize her.

Edited to add...YES I am very much in favor of how it used to be. Give me Natural Selection over Wilderness Socialism.

Excellent Paul. I hope they can work something out. Thanks for the heads-up!

Technicalities Will...
The fact that it was a Tennessee River Gorge Trust flier is beside the point; the flier clearly advertises/celebrates the SCC's newly-gained management of Castle Rock, and the image of a bolted crack with a giddy climber--intentionally or not-- makes a definite statement about the SCC's "management" stance. It suggests that any thing goes at Castle. And add the fact of the SCC's own active bolting there, and you have inadvertently created a no-ethics zone.

It is also a technicality that the route was put up before the SCC took over. Bolted crack climbs are not legitimate because they deface a naturally protectable feature. They run counter to any notion of cliff conservation and should not be allowed. Obviously they should not be grandfathered-in in any managed climbing area.

And to Dave...I'm sure that Greg is as brilliant and ballsy a climber as everyone says he is; that is beside the point. Many others of us have climbed unprotected choss without bolts--as Greg no doubt has. The crack in the photo though is clearly not chossy, nor is the surrounding rock, so why is the crack bolted? For convenience? To accomodate gym climbers? Who knows? But if you see those bolts as justifiable, then be consistent: go to TWall and bolt Golden Locks, that route too has a spicy start and bolts on it would be very convenient.

And, Dave, whether or not I have I climbed the bolted crack is also beside the point. Quite possibly I did climb it in 1987-88 when I was climbing at Castle. A sweet crack like that would've attracted us like a magnet then; but that is beside the point. The bedrock standard for naturally-protectable features should be that they are not bolted. I suggest that the SCC adopt this standard.
And one final point: the bolts next to the crack are almost certainly retros, another reason for them to go.

Todd - I hear you and no need to hold your breath, although as Will said sometimes it is very subjective as to what is a gear v. sport route [especially on SE sandstone ...]. Other times it is very obvious and that should be where the distinction lies.

The SCC mission has always been about gaining and preserving access - without regard to the type of climbing at a given area. But as you have noted the landscape has changed significantly over the last 10 - 15 years. There are still a lot of wild places where you will never see a soul, but that world is getting smaller. I recognize more clearly than ever that individual climber decisions as we move forward can and do affect access. We can't turn back the clock but can be more proactive in our thinking about the mission.

Just saw your post, Will. OK you're not on the board anymore; find a board member who is willing to make the motion. If you're serious.
And what is a crack climb? I know you're not being facetious-- a crack climb would clearly have a climbable, protectable crack. Let's don't get into semantics here. Raising a technicality like that would suggest that you're not really serious about finding solutions but only in kicking the can down the road.

Will Eccleston wrote:And...I am going to try very hard to stop looking at this thread, and in particular, stop responding to YOU. But I know I'm going to fail...

You guys have a problem....
The first step is to admit it....
But, I bet you can't stop looking, Will...and you probably shouldn't.
Thing is, y'all are both too invested in defending what you feel is right.
Fortunately, I speculate, that y'all are generally on the same team.
And I have seen how fast you can build a composting crapper....
I have dreams that the SCC would do more of that sort of work...
Instead of spreading this booku-Chattanooga agenda.

Now, to Dave Wilson's replies....
You see, it's good that you have these credentials and exposure with the SCC and AF.
It goes to credibility with the masses and with the donors and with the Kool-Aid drinkers.
Problematically, under your tenured oversight, things have gone awry.
Like, real bad.
So, take all that and do with it what you will.
Or keep defending trespass bolting and these other actions we are wailing about.

And, good....
I am glad you have comment from Bernard.
True, the sky may not be falling, but it'd be hard to deny the impact of the SCC agenda on both: property/land/stone and history.
I am sensitive about both.
And hyper sensitive to the degree that in all my years of moving about in the woods of the SE, I have never encountered a user group with such numbers, such a high aggregate level of intelligence, and such funds doing so poor a job at managing RESOURCES.

And THAT is my agenda....

LNT, sustainable practices...
And, if the SCC is to be a landowner and is going to (successfully, as it has) raise funds to "secure access", it better step up.....
Especially as the user group grows, exponentially, in what are really the last-touched parts of the country to be climbed out.
I have seen hunting, backpacking, MTB, rock climbing, and bass fishing explode in AL in the last 25 years.
I jumped off of the falls at Little River Canyon when I was fourteen years old, on an early motorcycling trip, and have been running that canyon since I was in grade-school....
It looks a lot different now.
AND, having travelled to other parts of the country in pursuit of all those things, I can see that even Chattanooga has a ways to go before it is totally beat down....
But, we should not sit idly by, watching things burn.

I will not do it in Alabama.

You bring up your credentials.....
Well, as far as the SCC goes, many of you/them do not know me.
For the first several years of my climbing, I had the good fortune to tie up with some like-minded, wilderness-experience enthusiasts.
Steele, YC, Jamestown, Suck Creek, Tallulah, and Laurel Knob, Big Green, Whitesides had my attention for the time.
Sure, I have visited Sunset and TWAll and Sandrock, but I'm a woodsy sort of fellow.
Later, as I became more active with the SCC (donating several thousands of dollars in time and money, specifically for Steele, as many of y'all have for other projects), I saw the drift occurring over the past few years.
That was 2012 and 2013.

To Paul's point, that same time saw the land next door come for sale....
Having known about the possibility but having missed out the first time the property came on the market, my young wife and I decided to pull up lifelong stakes in Birmingham and Locust Fork, and put down permanent roots....next door to the SCC.
At the time, in the interest of coalescing....

Then, well, read Paul's post.
The very guy that is saying the sky ain't falling has been so bold as to back the ludicrous position that we should let whomever come within eyesight and earshot of the house, whenever they want, under the auspices of access.
Well, once the TWall-like atmosphere started up at a once-peaceful place, we had to pipe up.
Wilderness Socialists, we are not.

Ever read up on the Roadside Wall.
Not as bad, but similar disregard for property and people.
And, yes, as a climber, I feel strange for being on the horn-blowing train.

So, like Will, I am hopeful for a resolution that is reasonably satisfactory to all.
If not, I fear this thread is just the beginning of something that will get disgusting.

To Tyler's point, it's a matter we all care a lot about.

Will Eccleston wrote:Edit to say: It's really too bad, because the climbing community desperately needs people with traditional values to try and influence up and coming climbers and convince them of the enormous value to be gained by learning to climb in a self-sufficient, low-impact style. But if I were 17 years old, coming out of a gym, and visiting T-Wall for the first time and thinking "why the he11 don't they just bolt everything here?" and I read this thread, I would definitely not be inspired by your comments. I would write you off.

The SCC has access to golden examples of just this sort of climber....Tyler, Scott Perkins, Shannon Stegg, Bernard, Adam Henry, Rob Robinson, etc., etc...
And I am talking about folks who are most certainly more senior and experienced than myself...in climbing.
Some of whom I consider mentors.
How does the SCC treat them?
My observation: I called it a "slap in the face", previously.
It was really amazing to see two or three "Board Members" shut down something like 20x the SCC's collective experience, when considering the four or five main protagonists...
Who were accompanied by some very large portfolios and some very savy business practices.

Let's see if this message shines through the fog.

Todd, I assure you that I'm on your side here. I raised a big stink a few short years ago about the way a certain crag was developed. I am only saying that there are infinite shades of grey. I have climbed some really runout lines in Tennessee and North Carolina and have been ecstatic when I sent them, for all kinds of reasons. Climbers with the "why not bolt?" attitude are really cheating themselves out of something that is amazing on many levels, and much more so than sport climbing (but I have enjoyed sport climbing and will again at some point). I'm merely pointing out that there are infinite shades of grey, and everyone is going to draw the line in a different place. Letting lines get bolted pisses people off (and it has very much pissed me off). Not allowing lines to be bolted pisses people off (I can't think of a single time this has pissed me off, but there are plenty of people in that camp).

I can't agree with the idea that a climbing area shouldn't be "opened", even though I know it immediately changes the character of the place by way of visitor impact. But I can agree wholeheartedly that areas should be "developed" in the lowest impact and most natural way possible, and part of that is trying to lean wayyyyy in the direction of gear vs bolts. The conundrums are convincing the rest of the community of the value in that, and then figuring out how to decide when to drill and when not to drill. These are difficult problems, but working toward solving them is key. And I couldn't agree more that the SCC needs to work harder on this stuff (and I think they will). It would be awesome if they had your help, and my help, and Paul's help, and Ben's help, etc. etc.

Cornelius Jefferson wrote:The elephant in the room is that bolts attract people like moths to flame. When you bolt a cliff you exponentially increase the number of visitors. It's not just the increasing popularity of climbing, it's the accessibility, absence of commitment and risk reduction of sport climbing that is crowding up the cliffs. The development style sanctioned by the SCC is unsustainable no matter how many cliffs they acquire. This 'buy it and bolt it' mentality may be good for their coffers but it's terrible for the sport in the long run.

This.

While not exactly the same debate, a lot of the same concepts were debated a long time ago.

frostworksclimbing.com/gpiw…

If only I were a better writer, to make a better case for these clean, less impact practices.

Now, you damn kids get off my lawn!

"I can't agree with the idea that a climbing area shouldn't be "opened", even though I know it immediately changes the character of the place by way of visitor impact."

I think Ben's wife, and any other close neighbor of an SCC property would beg to differ. It's this kind of entitlement mentality and total disregard for someone's quality of life who makes their HOME adjacent to the shitshow that gives climbers a bad name with them. That's what I meant when I said that to purchase the land and loose the hordes is just a big FUCK YOU to the people who don't want you there. And you have just driven that point home. I hope they run y'all's ass slap off of Chandler Mountain....again....cause ya haven't learned a damn thing.

Are we talking about folks who are on SCC property, or folks who have wandered off of SCC property onto Ben's property? Or both?

Will Eccleston wrote:It would be awesome if they had your help, and my help, and Paul's help, and Ben's help, etc. etc.

Point is:
It doesn't seem wanted.

There is so much to be offered in the way of experience, business practice, development, historically relevant information, and more...
But, at the first indication of something that doesn't jeehaw with your Board, there's a very defensive (blindly defensive) posture that is very, very frustrating.

And, seriously, you sort of just proved Paul's point about disregard and entitlement mentality.
Steele.
Yellow Creek.
Jamestown.
Leda.
Bee Rock.
The Dihedrals.
Etc.
Etc.
Have all been impacted or experienced climber/landowner discord by these "openings" and/or climber presence...
Closed, "opened", closed, OPENED, in some cases....
"Open" then closed forever in others.
Waiting on the first one to get OPENED/"Accessed", then closed...
Or maybe I missed that.
Either way, you get my point, I hope.

So is it you guys' positions that crags should not be officially opened? If that's the case I feel like a total schmuck for having wasted so much of my life on this all week.

Not unless Paul builds that time machine.
Or unless you know some conservation-minded, wealthy, benevolent rock climber somewhere that can do it independently of tainted (to me) 501c3s.

The position is that the ACCESS ORG that touts itself as the 'crag opener', needs to think on it's sustainability, development, marketing, and educational practices.
If they have the resources and time to coordinate these fundraisers, purchases, rave-parties, "brought to you by the SCC and Crashpad" signs/campaigns, etc....
Then they should have the time and wherewithal to address these complaints better.

And, there is the transparency issue that I think other's are more interested in.

But, we've discussed this, already...
It's Friday, again.
It's a long weekend.
I hope the weather is nice and we can all get outside.
Beyond that, I'm gonna let this thread speak my opinion and try to bow out.

Roll Tide.

Let me just say for the record that I believe the work the SCC did at it's inception to keep Sunset open was probably the most significant and worthwhile thing that the SCC has ever done. Yes...EVER. But that was a whole different bunch of folks...one of whom I hope to drag with me to this meeting. If I can get his broke down old ass in the vehicle. And y'all think I'M a handful...lol.

I'm kinda over this thing for now. I've made my points. It's a holiday weekend and I turn 48 tomorrow. I hope to climb somethin, take the old scooter up through the beautiful North Georgia mountains, spend some quality time with my boy, and chase my ole lady around a lil bit. Y'all have a good one...

Happy birthday ! Don't bring that long haired hippy or we'll have to hear his crazy stories all night!