Tallulah Gorge Peregrines
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Saved them from what, exactly? From being closed you will, no doubt, say. Well who's gonna save 'em from what happens to 'em once thy're open? Is open all that matters? Since I am limited now as to the number of posts I can make in a given time period, this may be a long one...but so was Dave's. |
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In reply to Todd: |
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In reply to Paul: |
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Oh it's not me you need to worry about. The SCC, and some local newspapers in Alabama as I understand it, are going to be hearing from the little family's Matriarch about what it's like to be the neighbor of an SCC property. Good luck trying to marginalize her. |
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Excellent Paul. I hope they can work something out. Thanks for the heads-up! |
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Technicalities Will... |
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Todd - I hear you and no need to hold your breath, although as Will said sometimes it is very subjective as to what is a gear v. sport route [especially on SE sandstone ...]. Other times it is very obvious and that should be where the distinction lies. |
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Just saw your post, Will. OK you're not on the board anymore; find a board member who is willing to make the motion. If you're serious. |
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Will Eccleston wrote:And...I am going to try very hard to stop looking at this thread, and in particular, stop responding to YOU. But I know I'm going to fail...You guys have a problem.... The first step is to admit it.... But, I bet you can't stop looking, Will...and you probably shouldn't. Thing is, y'all are both too invested in defending what you feel is right. Fortunately, I speculate, that y'all are generally on the same team. And I have seen how fast you can build a composting crapper.... I have dreams that the SCC would do more of that sort of work... Instead of spreading this booku-Chattanooga agenda. Now, to Dave Wilson's replies.... You see, it's good that you have these credentials and exposure with the SCC and AF. It goes to credibility with the masses and with the donors and with the Kool-Aid drinkers. Problematically, under your tenured oversight, things have gone awry. Like, real bad. So, take all that and do with it what you will. Or keep defending trespass bolting and these other actions we are wailing about. And, good.... I am glad you have comment from Bernard. True, the sky may not be falling, but it'd be hard to deny the impact of the SCC agenda on both: property/land/stone and history. I am sensitive about both. And hyper sensitive to the degree that in all my years of moving about in the woods of the SE, I have never encountered a user group with such numbers, such a high aggregate level of intelligence, and such funds doing so poor a job at managing RESOURCES. And THAT is my agenda.... LNT, sustainable practices... And, if the SCC is to be a landowner and is going to (successfully, as it has) raise funds to "secure access", it better step up..... Especially as the user group grows, exponentially, in what are really the last-touched parts of the country to be climbed out. I have seen hunting, backpacking, MTB, rock climbing, and bass fishing explode in AL in the last 25 years. I jumped off of the falls at Little River Canyon when I was fourteen years old, on an early motorcycling trip, and have been running that canyon since I was in grade-school.... It looks a lot different now. AND, having travelled to other parts of the country in pursuit of all those things, I can see that even Chattanooga has a ways to go before it is totally beat down.... But, we should not sit idly by, watching things burn. I will not do it in Alabama. You bring up your credentials..... Well, as far as the SCC goes, many of you/them do not know me. For the first several years of my climbing, I had the good fortune to tie up with some like-minded, wilderness-experience enthusiasts. Steele, YC, Jamestown, Suck Creek, Tallulah, and Laurel Knob, Big Green, Whitesides had my attention for the time. Sure, I have visited Sunset and TWAll and Sandrock, but I'm a woodsy sort of fellow. Later, as I became more active with the SCC (donating several thousands of dollars in time and money, specifically for Steele, as many of y'all have for other projects), I saw the drift occurring over the past few years. That was 2012 and 2013. To Paul's point, that same time saw the land next door come for sale.... Having known about the possibility but having missed out the first time the property came on the market, my young wife and I decided to pull up lifelong stakes in Birmingham and Locust Fork, and put down permanent roots....next door to the SCC. At the time, in the interest of coalescing.... Then, well, read Paul's post. The very guy that is saying the sky ain't falling has been so bold as to back the ludicrous position that we should let whomever come within eyesight and earshot of the house, whenever they want, under the auspices of access. Well, once the TWall-like atmosphere started up at a once-peaceful place, we had to pipe up. Wilderness Socialists, we are not. Ever read up on the Roadside Wall. Not as bad, but similar disregard for property and people. And, yes, as a climber, I feel strange for being on the horn-blowing train. So, like Will, I am hopeful for a resolution that is reasonably satisfactory to all. If not, I fear this thread is just the beginning of something that will get disgusting. To Tyler's point, it's a matter we all care a lot about. |
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Will Eccleston wrote:Edit to say: It's really too bad, because the climbing community desperately needs people with traditional values to try and influence up and coming climbers and convince them of the enormous value to be gained by learning to climb in a self-sufficient, low-impact style. But if I were 17 years old, coming out of a gym, and visiting T-Wall for the first time and thinking "why the he11 don't they just bolt everything here?" and I read this thread, I would definitely not be inspired by your comments. I would write you off.The SCC has access to golden examples of just this sort of climber....Tyler, Scott Perkins, Shannon Stegg, Bernard, Adam Henry, Rob Robinson, etc., etc... And I am talking about folks who are most certainly more senior and experienced than myself...in climbing. Some of whom I consider mentors. How does the SCC treat them? My observation: I called it a "slap in the face", previously. It was really amazing to see two or three "Board Members" shut down something like 20x the SCC's collective experience, when considering the four or five main protagonists... Who were accompanied by some very large portfolios and some very savy business practices. Let's see if this message shines through the fog. |
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Todd, I assure you that I'm on your side here. I raised a big stink a few short years ago about the way a certain crag was developed. I am only saying that there are infinite shades of grey. I have climbed some really runout lines in Tennessee and North Carolina and have been ecstatic when I sent them, for all kinds of reasons. Climbers with the "why not bolt?" attitude are really cheating themselves out of something that is amazing on many levels, and much more so than sport climbing (but I have enjoyed sport climbing and will again at some point). I'm merely pointing out that there are infinite shades of grey, and everyone is going to draw the line in a different place. Letting lines get bolted pisses people off (and it has very much pissed me off). Not allowing lines to be bolted pisses people off (I can't think of a single time this has pissed me off, but there are plenty of people in that camp). |
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Cornelius Jefferson wrote:The elephant in the room is that bolts attract people like moths to flame. When you bolt a cliff you exponentially increase the number of visitors. It's not just the increasing popularity of climbing, it's the accessibility, absence of commitment and risk reduction of sport climbing that is crowding up the cliffs. The development style sanctioned by the SCC is unsustainable no matter how many cliffs they acquire. This 'buy it and bolt it' mentality may be good for their coffers but it's terrible for the sport in the long run.This. |
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While not exactly the same debate, a lot of the same concepts were debated a long time ago. |
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"I can't agree with the idea that a climbing area shouldn't be "opened", even though I know it immediately changes the character of the place by way of visitor impact." |
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Are we talking about folks who are on SCC property, or folks who have wandered off of SCC property onto Ben's property? Or both? |
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Will Eccleston wrote:It would be awesome if they had your help, and my help, and Paul's help, and Ben's help, etc. etc.Point is: It doesn't seem wanted. There is so much to be offered in the way of experience, business practice, development, historically relevant information, and more... But, at the first indication of something that doesn't jeehaw with your Board, there's a very defensive (blindly defensive) posture that is very, very frustrating. And, seriously, you sort of just proved Paul's point about disregard and entitlement mentality. Steele. Yellow Creek. Jamestown. Leda. Bee Rock. The Dihedrals. Etc. Etc. Have all been impacted or experienced climber/landowner discord by these "openings" and/or climber presence... Closed, "opened", closed, OPENED, in some cases.... "Open" then closed forever in others. Waiting on the first one to get OPENED/"Accessed", then closed... Or maybe I missed that. Either way, you get my point, I hope. |
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So is it you guys' positions that crags should not be officially opened? If that's the case I feel like a total schmuck for having wasted so much of my life on this all week. |
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Not unless Paul builds that time machine. |
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Let me just say for the record that I believe the work the SCC did at it's inception to keep Sunset open was probably the most significant and worthwhile thing that the SCC has ever done. Yes...EVER. But that was a whole different bunch of folks...one of whom I hope to drag with me to this meeting. If I can get his broke down old ass in the vehicle. And y'all think I'M a handful...lol. |
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Happy birthday ! Don't bring that long haired hippy or we'll have to hear his crazy stories all night! |