How do you defend yourself against wildlife when hiking or approaching a climb?

wa5.10 wrote: First off, do you really think a 10 will do something a 45 won't? Its not like a bears skull is armor plated or extremely thick like a rams, and the heart isn't surrounded by anything a 45 couldn't break thru. If I ever had the need to defend myself from a natural predator, I wouldn't hesitate to use the gun I carry everyday. That's why I carry it. Would it ethically take down a griz, no way. Would it take down a griz if my life depended on it, yes. Honestly, if you could handload your own rounds, you'd understand. Under 100 fps difference between the two, translates to muzzle energy differencial of 25 ft-lbf. In favor of the 45acp with a 180-185gr round. Check your external ballistics, don't rely on the guy at Walmart that sold you the .40 xdm. Weight is always an issue, carrying a double stack or revolver is heavy, too heavy imo. I feel confident in carrying 7 rounds in a compact lightweight concealable package that weighs 758g loaded. "My thought on guns are this, they are like condoms, I'd much rather have one and not need it, then not have one when I do." You can quote me on that.

That's funny, because I hand load everything I shoot from 9, 45, 38, ,357, to 30-30. The 10mm carries a lot more energy than a 45 is ever capable of producing. Glock 29 in 10mm can kick out over 700 foot pounds where as a 45 can barely break 500 foot pounds without massively exceeding case pressure. The 10mm is on par with a 357 mag. I load everything from light target rounds to self defense loads, semi precision rifle loads, and my hunting rounds.

The 45 is a great cartridge, but mostly for anti person use. I carry one a lot, mostly in a 1911. I did own a 36, but sold it. A 29 is a very similar size package but a lot more capable for what we're concerned with here

Don't think you're special just because you reload, there's always someone who knows more than you

Greg Petliski wrote: This is North America. There are almost no animals left to be afraid of. I've been backpacking, mostly solo but sometimes with others, for about a decade, in all climes and terrains. Seen a black bear a few times, a grizzly once, and a rattlesnake once. Anyone who worries about wildlife attacks, today, in North America, is the same kind of person that worries about the next 9/11 happening in Des Moines, Iowa.

Awesome for you, I am on the border of Canada and have encountered multiple bear in 3 years hiking. Each situation is different, as I said. After experiencing repeat situations it would be stupid for me and my family to not consider the danger.

I'm just shocked by how many people on this thread think that nothing can happen from a bear or other predator. It happens all the time.

At least one of you mentioned it, any you guys ever have a buck bark at you? GF and I were asleep in the tent, it came up behind us and barked and stomped for nearly ten minutes. Scared the hell out of us. Our dogs were at our feet, both of them slept through it, I thought they were playing dead. That really changed my feelings, always thought the dogs were my deterrent. That was a night to remember. Lol same weekend a buck almost gored me, and one of the dogs brought a half rack into camp.

Anybody use a potato cannon against a charging grizzly? I'm thinking if you could get a really big Idaho right down it's throat... Could be the next extreme sport..facing down danger with a cool head and extreme skill.

Also, don't be the squeal-pig guy

akafaultline wrote:And for people that say hand guns are useless- I completely disagree and from practical experience know that's not true. A person was attacked right by my house by a brown bear-killed it with a .44 and hard led bullets. Likewise, my neighbor just had a black bear break into his garage-shot it with a.44 and it subsequently died. If I was in the lower 48, I'd go with a .357-way less recoil and much more reliable and fool proof than any glock or acp.

That's principally me that argued that pistols were useless from a technical standpoint. I should rephrase: your average automatic pistol cartridge will be useless against a bear. Moreover, the handling difficulty that runs concomitant with the power of useful revolver cartridges means that you need the bear to get especially close before you can be effective with it. The slow rate of fire means that you may only get *one* shot.

As to what Matt Wilson said re: mental hurdles of shooting animals, that's not really what I'm concerned with. I'm saying that being precise and speedy with your shot placement under duress is a non-trivial skill. I for one would have to spend a lot of time at the range, focusing specifically on quick shots on moving targets. And then graduate to quick shots on moving targets that are actively trying to kill me. Cops are notoriously bad shots, not because they don't spend a lot of time on the range, but because actual self-defense shooting is incredibly hard.

Tom Sherman wrote:At least one of you mentioned it, any you guys ever have a buck bark at you? GF and I were asleep in the tent, it came up behind us and barked and stomped for nearly ten minutes. Scared the hell out of us. Our dogs were at our feet, both of them slept through it, I thought they were playing dead. That really changed my feelings, always thought the dogs were my deterrent. That was a night to remember. Lol some weekend a buck almost gored me, and one of the dogs brought a half rack into camp.

YES! But I didn't know what or where the noise was coming from. Haha.. I can't believe a deer can make those scary noises.

I have hiked and biked all over B.C. And Alberta Canada ran into bears. Who ever said don't run from a bear has never been chased! I backed up slowly and ran once. I was in Golden BC. The other time the biggest bear I've ever seen approached me like it was my buddy. I was in Whistler Bike Park wanting for a friend to setup his camera. I rode away from him instead of shooting.

For you gun enthusiasts, I got a Beowolf AR. The .50 has 450 or 550 grains behind it. I would like to see what that would do but shooting a deer with a Beowolf would like using a 7mm..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_…

I'd be more worried about bee stings if I were you guys....bears? Really?

You only get to be scared if you live in AK or Northern Canada.

I woke up with a black bear breathing in my face in Tuolumne once. Scary, but harmless.

Greg Petliski wrote: There have been just 16 fatalities from both black and brown bear in all of North America since 2010 (and one was captive, so make it 15 in the wild). I wouldn't say its happening all the time. Twice as many people are killed each year by dogs in the U.S. alone. Bears can be a risk, for sure, more so in some areas than others, but not one that warrants assault rifles and bazookas like some here would like to see. Same goes for all North American wildlife. The actual numbers just dont support the fear.

I'd carry bear spray in regions with brown bears. Less chance of you getting hurt, less chance of killing some stupid animal out of a lack of understanding if its behaviour. Anywhere without brown bears and I wouldn't worry about anything short of big old hoofed mammals during the rut.

Happy reading. Bear spray has a higher success rate, a lower human injury/encounter rate, and skips the 60% bear fatality rate.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

polarbearsinternational.org…

Greg Petliski wrote: There have been just 16 fatalities from both black and brown bear in all of North America since 2010 (and one was captive, so make it 15 in the wild). I wouldn't say its happening all the time. Twice as many people are killed each year by dogs in the U.S. alone. Bears can be a risk, for sure, more so in some areas than others, but not one that warrants assault rifles and bazookas like some here would like to see. Same goes for all North American wildlife. The actual numbers just dont support the fear.

And how about maulings? How about grizzlies, which you completely left out.

Dunno, I still don't own a gun, but after encountering two bears on trails with my kids hiking with me, its silly to say to not even think about defending yourself and that if you be nice and so everything right, you wont have any problems, as at least several people upthread have mentioned.

Cueious where you are getting your numbers.

You are flirting with disaster if you climb in the Winds or Wild Iris without bear spray. We have at least one resident grizzly, Waffles, at the crag. Last year there were multiple attacks in western Wyoming and one nasty fatality. It's real. One of the reason for so few attacks over the years is the number of big bears was low. Not so much anymore. I carry pepper spray as the first defense, and a gun for second if the wind is blowing. I make lots of noise, usually singing. Sorry for that.

Snakes are also real here, though not at Wild Iris. At Sinks and W.P. they are everywhere, and they don't always rattle before striking. One climber almost died two years ago from the bite, and he is still paying for all the croate-fab they had to give him. The lesson there was don't wear flip flops at the crag.

Most people will never see a griz, but if you are out there all the time, you will.

I've carried a gun in grizzly territory. .45 LC with extra hot rounds in a ruger Blackhawk as a back up to BEAR SPRAY. That's the minimum caliber to even consider(hot loads regular .45 LC is pointless) that being said, if you want to use a gun as defense against a grizzly you need to be very, very comfortable with guns. If you've never shot before except for plinking with your buddies at the range and shoot a high powered handgun, most likely the gun is going to fly up and hit you in the face, hard enough to break bones. You're also only going to get one shot, two at the most. If you have more time than that you're an asshole who is shooting an endangered species that isn't an imminent threat.

I've also been in grizzly country with only BEAR SPRAY and no gun, and to be honest I felt happier and enjoyed it more. 3 lbs of steel banging on your leg is annoying, and a constant reminder that you're too scared to just be out there without a gun, like 95% of everyone else(who all didn't get eaten by a bear).

Stick to bear spray it's been proven to work, and it's easy to use for everyone. That's what I do most of the time.

I agree with all Ryan says. Bear spray is way superior. My fear at W.I. is the wind. It's rare to have a calm afternoon. Also, last year we got in a situation where my hunting partners were charged by three grizzlies at the same time (mom and two very large cubs). Everyone had spray, but they were also on horses... horses don't take kindly to bear spray. Firing guns int he air and bull charging back at the bears worked. (To be clear and not get any Brian Williams blowback, I was not actually there when the charge happened. We had split up earlier in the day so I missed the actual fun)

Typically if I am going with a group then I don't carry a sidearm. If I am going into the backcountry alone, than this is what I carry on my hip.

Ruger Redhawk .44 mag

I agree, the risk is low; but the consequences are high. That includes being bitten/mauled/eaten/attacked by bears, lions, snakes, ticks, and humans. The vast majority of all out outdoor adventures don't result in problems... we go and enjoy it, then go our merry way. I think, as stated, we're more likely to wreck the car on the way to the crag... so for that we wear seat belts. Bear spray and/or firearms, as I see it, are like seat belts. Very effective, if you have them and use them. In nearly thirty years of driving a seat belt has reduced injuries to me twice, and in both cases somebody else caused the accident.

In the woods, I've been followed by a bear once to within 50 yds. Maybe the bear didn't know what I was, since when I turned around and noticed, waved my arms, it went crashing through the brush. Yay.

I carry bear spray. It's been shown to be more effective than a firearm. Anecdotal story... a guy I worked with took a near 600 pound bear while hunting. He shot it point blank in the head with a 357, which pissed it off. It ran 30 feet, then stopped and turned. He finished it with a 7mm mag. Point of the story: when he dressed it, one bullet was lodged in the skull, the other in the brain. Granted, his point was to kill the bear (bear snack sticks weren't that impressive to me, but I've heard it can be cooked pretty good); and the 357 didn't immediately get the job done. Just food for thought.

Anyhow, I still carry a firearm; but I figure that's potentially more effective against ne'er-do-good humans and lions than the bears. Can't think of much reason to shoot a snake when it's so easy to walk around them. In all the time I've been out in the woods, it's been the humans that have been the creepy ones far more than the wildlife. Been shot at from across a canyon once. Lobbed two back in the general direction and the guy hopped back in his truck and split. I was not dressed like a deer, I was in a wide open area, I was not on private property. I don't know what the deal was. Some people are just plain fucking nuts. Sounded like he had a 22. Had it been a high powered rifle, I don't know that I'd be here.

Anyway... shit happens. We keep flashlights and an earthquake stash (you know, basically our camping gear and some water). Carry a spare tire, two in the desert, wear sunscreen, etc etc. Not out of fear, just out of common sense. Or so we think. Most likely? Nothing will ever happen, and we'll die of heart disease or something.

My ex-wife rafted the Alasek in AK about 8 years ago and was asked to help count grizzlies they encountered. They recommended bear spray as the only reliable deterrent. They also said said bells and whistles were a sure way to attract bears since marmots and voles are a favorite food source and bells and whistles do a good job of mimicking them that the bears mistake the sounds for a food source.

Regarding hand guns, the only know handgun that can bring down a grizzly bear is the 454 Casgull or Alaskan. I do shoot and and train about 2 or 3 weeks a year with instructors with 9MM and 10MM. Hitting a stationary target at 25 yds with that type of load is hard enough. Put a 35 MPH charging bear, drawing and taking a snap shot...you will miss or graze. Now try it with a much heavier hand gun and 454 cartridge. If you are going to rely on guns, 4 climbers. Point has has pump 12 gauge with alternating 00 buck and slugs, 2 middle carry ropes and gear and rear carries 308 semi automatic 180 g 20 round magazine. Of course, its important to not panic and shoot your climbing partners.

Once on the way back down, very late, from an alpine adventure, I was 1/2 turned around on the trail talking with Jo when She grabbed my pack and yanked back and exclaimed something. I had almost walked into a black bear...
After the noise, The thing trotted off from a point so close to the edge of the trail I could have slapped it in the rear.
I've had several encounters with these and never felt the need to defend myself.
Reasonable question though I suppose. I figure that a little google searching of research and stats is worth more than 1000 opinions from people that have never been attacked. And thus I do not offer my own on what is most effective.

At what point do anecdotal stories become data?

Sam Stephens wrote: That's funny, because I hand load everything I shoot from 9, 45, 38, ,357, to 30-30. The 10mm carries a lot more energy than a 45 is ever capable of producing. Glock 29 in 10mm can kick out over 700 foot pounds where as a 45 can barely break 500 foot pounds without massively exceeding case pressure. The 10mm is on par with a 357 mag. I load everything from light target rounds to self defense loads, semi precision rifle loads, and my hunting rounds. The 45 is a great cartridge, but mostly for anti person use. I carry one a lot, mostly in a 1911. I did own a 36, but sold it. A 29 is a very similar size package but a lot more capable for what we're concerned with here Don't think you're special just because you reload, there's always someone who knows more than you

I'm not going to argue with someone WHILE I'm looking at sierras load manual stating the opposite. You realize a 10mm is a 40s&w with longer case correct?

Btw, I only load precion rifle and self defense. 223, 6br, 6.5cm, 308, 6.5x47, 45acp, 357. Bullet choice is far more important. No question.

johnnyrig wrote:At what point do anecdotal stories become data?

Once the conversation gets to page three. Oh look, we're already there.