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Tallulah Gorge Peregrines

Will Eccleston · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 25

Adding "duh" to my comment was definitely a step too far, and I totally understand why you're pissed.

whitarnold137 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 5

I am good friends with Ben, Derek, Paul, Sam, Ryan, Tim M., Tim T., Rob, J.A., etc.....
I have been climbing in the SE for 20+ years on and off. I got wrangled into this by being a friend to EVERYONE. LOL YB and Steel are both very close to my house and I still make it out to the crag about once every two weeks. Wife, Kids, Motorcycle, etc.... have taken over my life and I consider myself out of the loop. I will be the first one to say that my ethics or "F#$%s Given" have become relaxed. I also will be the first one to say that no one that really cares should EVER become like me. LOL I lived in Huntsville but now I live in Cullman and I still climb with J.A. when I make it to S.R. LOL I have never been a strong climber, so I have always kept my mouth shut when it comes to development or new routes, etc... I just like to climb - Bolts, Trad, even some Solo. I am not know for intelligence or typing skills or climbing skills. I am just known as the dude with the big dog. LOL All this talk is entertaining and I think there is a problem and I know that in the past I have helped on trail days and in the past I have bolted and been part of the problem. When all is said and done, I want to see new access and the ability to maintain access that we already have in the SE. so, since my name was mentioned I will say this little bit:
1) I need to be part of the fix and not the problem. As we all do!
2) YB is not that Grid Bolted and as far as I know nothing else will be bolted? Second, 1/3 of the routes there are still trad.
3) I think as the population grows crowds will also grow. As with crowds and youth or new climbers - they do not know ethics. I guess we need to talk to them??? If I do a self assessment I will see that my ethics really suck and need improvement.
4) I do not know the SCC or management and I really have no say in what they are doing. Unless I actually join them and start to contribute $$$.
5)Ryan, Tim, and Sam are great guys and they go out of their way to take care of crags and help EVERYONE. Ben is the same way but comes from more of the old school guard mentality.
6) Last, if new bolts go up, I guess we need to obtain permits. LOL The SCC needs to show exactly where their money is going. (I think they already do this?)
7) Youth need to be taught about tradition climbing and ethics - No damn radios at the crags. Can we all say that about hammocks too??? LOL I will never say anything bad about dogs. LOL
Etc...
Etc...
7)

Todd Wells · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 1

"All that development was out of Chattanooga." Yes, unfortunately. As noted above, the Chattanooga "bolt the world" ethic is a cancer that's spreading, and the culprits you seek--whether for retro-bolting, crack bolting, hold chipping or route-name graffiti painting--likely come from there. Odds are, too, they're likely affiliated with the SCC, either officially or unofficially. Dig deep enough and, besides the ego, laziness and bad manners of the individual offenders, you'll find a profit motive...as others have noted.

WadeM · · Auburn, Ca · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 481

Climb in the South from time to time:

Bolting a crack...why?
It's not the golden age of FAs anymore. I'd suggested oversight and new routing applications through a community vote ( aceeldo.org/). Seems to work okay out for highly populated areas out here (Flatirons, Eldo). It's not perfect, but keeps people accountable and the community involved.

I just find it funny when people post things to public forum and think only climbers read this. Land managers (who sometimes do not understand climbing terms) start asking "what are you doing to my land? rock?"

Good Luck.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
BHMBen wrote:John mentioned that Betty and Curt didn't say anything... Well, so what.
Jim Corbett wrote:And sax, as I said earlier, it does not matter whether a route has been documented.
Y'all say "so what/it doesn't matter" -- but it does matter. How is anyone supposed to know that a line has already been established if nobody speaks up, or it's not documented. People love having their little secrets that they only share with friends, but they pay the price when someone who's not in on the secret "discovers" what they think is a new route.

If you expect climbers to be mind-readers, you're going to get disappointed over and over.

JL
Will Eccleston · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 25

Whit,

Agree with almost everything - except that you actually DO have a say with the SCC, even without joining or donating any money - if you want it. I suspect Paul is going to come back and say that he and Ben have tried and not been heard. If that's the case then I sure hope there's still time and desire to remedy that situation (on both sides).

And to Todd Wells comment about folks being affiliated with the SCC - The SCC has a lot of members, and I hope, in the future, even more. It could be said that, yes, all of those people are "affiliated with the SCC". But no one working on behalf of the SCC would paint route names on a crag or chip holds. It just wouldn't be condoned. If you have some very specific instances of what you think is questionable activity being conducted by people that are working on behalf of the SCC, I'm sure the SCC and the community as a whole would love to know about it.

As far as bolting crack lines, the line in that promotional photo was not bolted by the SCC, and the SCC didn't make the flyer. The organization that put on the fundraiser made the flyer, and it was absolutely a poor choice of promo photos, without question.

Regarding the line Sierzant bolted at YB, again, he didn't know it was an established route, and no one spoke up, but the opening day of that crag should have gone differently on a number of levels. I doubt it will go down like that again, and I hope I'm right.

And regarding this "profit motive", yes, much of the SCC's purpose is fundraising. When your favorite crag goes up for sale for $250,000, I sure hope it can be purchased by climbers and not real estate developers.

Again, you guys have some valid concerns, but some of your arguments are a bit inaccurate, and I feel it's painting an image of evil that's really not there.

Stephen Felker · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 552

As pressure on our crags increases with population, greater grass roots involvement is needed in all corners of the TAG, if just to keep things tidy. Plus, each of these three states has unique circumstances and politics.

The SCC does not have a regulated monopoly. Maybe it is time to consider secession!

webdog · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

"The sensible thing would have been to have a moratorium on new routes until the history of the place was documented. " ask the CCC how this turned out.....

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

I wasn't at that meeting. But I can say that when, at it's conclusion, one of the SCC's most benevolent benefactors pretty much wrote them off as a lost cause. It surely didn't go well.

The most recurring comment I heard from those I know who were there was that the thing was being run by "children."

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
Paul Barnes wrote:"children."
Somewhat like the Mickey Mouse club.

S.F. has got it right.
Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Let's do this...it might weed out the children...and crack bolters.

Qualifications for SCC positions need to be well defined and documented. Current office holders should be reviewed to be sure they meet those qualifications including whether or not their past actions and associations put a proper face on the SCC, and whether their own personal climbing ethics and that of their known partners are in line with what the SCC considers to be appropriate. Going forward all potential office holders should be carefully vetted to make sure all qualifications are met. Just because someone is willing to volunteer, doesn't mean they should be allowed to. ie; I'm not gonna let a convicted sex offender babysit my kid just because he offers to do it for free. You get the point.

This should be conducted by the board of the SCC Land Trust or their proxies.

Jim Corbett · · Keene, NY · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 10
saxfiend wrote: Y'all say "so what/it doesn't matter" -- but it does matter. How is anyone supposed to know that a line has already been established if nobody speaks up, or it's not documented. People love having their little secrets that they only share with friends, but they pay the price when someone who's not in on the secret "discovers" what they think is a new route. If you expect climbers to be mind-readers, you're going to get disappointed over and over. JL
So your position would be that bolts put in after a line has been led cleanly on gear should be left in simply because the bolter didn't know the line had been climbed? That's absurd. Or entitled. If the line is undocumented I wouldn't be outraged the way I was with JA retro bolting some of Curtis's and Shannon's routes that were in every edition of Dixie Cragger's (though by definition there would be gear placements, however sparse, that should have given the bolter pause), but I would insist, gently, that, well, it's been done. Sorry about the effort you put in, take your gear and use it on another, unclimbed, line. Sounds like Mr. England gets that, which is encouraging. Are you sure you're thinking straight?
saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
Jim Corbett wrote: So your position would be that bolts put in after a line has been led cleanly on gear should be left in simply because the bolter didn't know the line had been climbed? That's absurd. Or entitled. If the line is undocumented I wouldn't be outraged the way I was with JA retro bolting some of Curtis's and Shannon's routes that were in every edition of Dixie Cragger's (though by definition there would be gear placements, however sparse, that should have given the bolter pause), but I would insist, gently, that, well, it's been done. Sorry about the effort you put in, take your gear and use it on another, unclimbed, line. Sounds like Mr. England gets that, which is encouraging. Are you sure you're thinking straight?
Are you sure you're reading straight? I never said anything whatsoever about leaving a retro-job in place. My point is that you wouldn't have to deal with it at all if people were aware the route had already been done. Not that it excuses the way the SCC handled things, but there were people with direct knowledge of the history of Yellow Bluff who could have kept the retros from happening just by sharing that knowledge with the SCC. But apparently they didn't.

Which sounds like less of a hassle to you -- publicly documenting your FA; or going back later, finding out it's been retro'd, getting in a confrontation with the bolter, bitching about it on the internet, etc.?

JL
Jim Corbett · · Keene, NY · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 10
saxfiend wrote: Which sounds like less of a hassle to you -- publicly documenting your FA; or going back later, finding out it's been retro'd, getting in a confrontation with the bolter, bitching about it on the internet, etc.? JL
Most undocumented routes are undocumented because the access is less than straightforward, like YB was. At some point the access might become less of an issue, like YB has. I assume you wouldn't think it a great idea to broadcast such routes in the meantime, and that shouldn't become an excuse for every bonehead to bolt up something that let's not forget could demonstrably be led on gear.
Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 125
saxfiend wrote: confrontation with the bolter, bitching about it on the internet, etc.? JL
Bitching on the internet is a sport for some people.

This thread sure has gone off the rails. But there is some wheat mixed in with the chaff. I suspect I have very little in common with Jim but respect for tradition and maintaining some sort of ethical standards with respect to the treatment of climbing areas is probably something we're not that far apart on. Having said that I'm not sure I understand what him and Todd and some of the others think the solution is. Like it or not (and sometimes I don't like it at all when my favorite areas get more crowded every day) climbing has gone mainstream and there are a lot of new climbers coming into the sport who don't share the same values. Bitching about it may feel good but it's not likely to change their views. Mentoring younger climbers might though. It may take time away from doing what you want but it can be fun too. Something to think about.
shannon stegg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 0

Sorry Sax, I really was not comfortable giving you my information. However, I did try several times to contact Mr. Watford and plan a trip to get the information for his new guide book. He was not interested. Probably too busy changing correct info to false info as he has stated in an recent thread. In retrospect, I wish someone with some credibility from the SCC would of asked for the information, I might have given them a history lesson about Yellow Bluff. How me and my partner found it and put up sixteen routes all on gear, all on perfect sandstone. Then we told the Alabama Climber's about it, and the shit hit the fan Bolts and runners took over, turning the cliff into something that looked like a decorated tree. The land owner closed the cliff after some crazy, lazy sport climber decided to cut some of his trees down so he could park a little closer. How do we go on if we can not even learn from our past mistakes.

DavisMeschke Guillotine · · Pinedale, WY · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 225

I hope this issue can get resolved. I haven't been climbing long enough to have firsthand knowledge of the history of these places in the SE, but I've climbed with some of the "old guard" (guess you have to have been climbing for a while to have common sense?) and it seems that it's common sense to not bolt a line that goes on gear. Guess the sport climbers are above learning to place gear.

As for the SCC, transparency is the logical solution. This is the key for any non-profit organization. Maybe a change in leadership is needed? I would be interested in seeing a sit-down meeting where these issues can be discussed genuinely with both sides of the coin (bolters and "old guard").

Who knows...

Sounds like the cancer IS spreading. Kind of ironic that climbers are now defending crags from the very organizations that are in place to be doing that for us.

Flame on

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
DavisMeschke wrote:I hope this issue can get resolved.
I believe it actually is.

Thanks to the Northern Alabamians for reaching out to Paul and myself last night.....
Thanks to the concerted efforts of the Georgians addressing Tallulah....
And other Georgians addressing the SCC directly....
Thanks to some strong influence in Chattanooga....
And thanks to the prevalence of common sense, even amongst all this verbiage....
It seems that a dialogue of the appropriate sort has now re-commenced.

I have it on good authority that Chatt-centric crack bolting is going to have a succinct and direct address in the near future.....
Alabamians need to continue to talk and then address YB and some other missteps....and those talks are happening.
Georgians are talking with Tallulah soon....and we are all hopeful that such an attractive resource is not marred by climber interaction, rather that it improves it....and significantly.

In talks last night, it has become clear to me how small, yet disconnected, the "concerned community" is.
Sure, the "climbing community" is big and getting bigger in the SE....
Birmingham, Chattanooga, and ATL perfectly frame the best sandstone climbing in the U.S.A., for crying out loud....
But, from within the ranks somewhere, there must be some semblance of order, sustainability, and mature consideration to the impact we are all having on resources that some of us have been around our whole lives.

And, yes, a lot of us operate "near" the SCC, but it has been made evident that the issues we have raised, concerning the T.A.G., have been swept under the rug...
Well, now that it seems we're all somewhat stirred up and talking (even as disconnected as we may be)....
I come to find that most everyone on this thread and ALL of the 'Olde Guarde' have withdrawn support.
This speaks volumes about the state of things and this proliferation of tomfoolery.
This thread and other conversations that are occurring, represent the utter upset amongst some of the strongest, most prolific, and most tenured rock climbers in the SE.
And a fear of what we have done to ourselves with the prolifieration of climber-money, cheap price of entry, and popularity that is hurting access for us all.
If not managed well, we're all screwed.
It is in the interests of the very SUSTAINABILITY and ACCESS that we all enjoy that this address has been made.

So, yes, Davis.....
I too hope this is resolved.
Some very smart guys have called another meeting and it seems that this one will actually be structured and run with a goal in mind.
Let me know if there are questions.
And, stay tuned.
saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221

Sounds promising, Ben. Thanks for staying on top of things.

JL

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

To the lurkers who have emailed support...thank you.

But...get your ass in here and let 'em hear from you too!!! They have actually said "Aw c'mon man...it's just a couple guys on Mountain Project...".

Thankfully...a good friend workin behind the scenes has pointed out to them that it really is much bigger than that, and meaningful change is to be discussed at an upcoming meeting. We'll see. Rest assured, I am not easily swayed or bullshitted. And if it doesn't go well...you'll all know it.

And if you don't wanna post, and you have issues that you want brought up at this meeting, please feel free to contact myself or Ben through this site.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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