Tallulah Gorge Peregrines

Furthermore, we are not the crag police. Sure I pick up trash and help prevent erosion, but in the end I have better things to do, like go climbing, than worry about someone else's bolts.

Ah yes...the old "to my knowledge" disclaimer...combined with the SCC's classic canned response of "we are not the crag police." See how those two work in conjunction? Y'all use the disclaimer as an excuse to let em go in...and the canned response as an excuse to leave em up...and the cycle continues.

Ryan7crew wrote:Paul, We have given much thought into chopping it, and the adjacent squeeze jobs. However, in the end, I thought the best course of action was to simply respect the rock and not litter it with a bunch of chopped bolts in such a visible area.

Gonna call BS on this, retros should be chopped. It is Orwellian to say that it is 'respecting the rock' to leave them when it has been demonstrated that they are unnecessary to climb the route. I guarantee that you can't find any of the bolts I've chopped without a metal detector. It's not difficult.

sam england wrote:Blah, blah, blah....We are not the crag police

Unbelievable how you guys will claim ignorance.
Your girdle traverse on Whitesides.....impressive and I plan to do it when the time is right.
Your weak stance, your "I don't know Sierzant" so I am not responsible, position...
It's so bad.
So bad.

Regarding Yellow Bluff: Tilt-a-Whirl (5.10c/d) was retrobolted I believe early on during the effort by local climbers to install anchors.
Very disappointed to see that.
Bernard Wolfe established that route back in the 80s.
There is another that he put up that has no name.....and I think is just on the property boundary of the cliff....also retro'd....I presume the same time.
I haven't been there in awhile....but there's more.

Comments?

Ryan7crew wrote:Paul, We have given much thought into chopping it, and the adjacent squeeze jobs. However, in the end, I thought the best course of action was to simply respect the rock and not litter it with a bunch of chopped bolts in such a visible area. I agree with you that no respect has been shown in the past by retrobolting and squeezing in lines. Maybe an effort should be made to camoflouge the hangers so they stand out less, but I think at this point chopping every unsuitable route is the wrong approach. Also, the FA, (that's Wolfe right?) has never approached any of us, online or in person, and asked specifically for it to be chopped as far as I am aware.

Bernard is not an aggressive sort of fellow.
He's too classy to deal with y'all's sorry orversight.
Alas, others of us are not.
A trespass against humanity needs called out.

Camoflauge the hangers???
What a copout.

You guys are strong, young, and, if only you could pull your head out of the sand, you'd really go places.
You should listen, learn, and be part of the solution.

Kool-aid drinkers.

They gotta go back and get more marching orders. I happen to know for a fact that some SCC higher ups are monitoring this thread, making hour long phonecalls, and scrambling to do damage control...Rallying the koolaid drinkin minions. Didn't go so well for these first few. Wonder who they'll throw in here next?

sam england wrote:All right Ben. I like a soapbox rant as much as the next guy but you are factually incorrect on many of the things you are posting. The developers of Yellow Bluff, myself included, sadly are not the evangelized gym climbers you think they are. Honestly, it's pretty funny to consider the "thing" we have in Huntsville a climbing gym at all. I'll not get into climbing experience, mine or any other developer, to avoid the aforementioned chest thumping, but suffice to say there is a large amount of experience in the group. Realistically, there is only 1 drill. The same one that has been used to replace old rusty 1/4" hardware on the Whiteside headwall, quite a feat for some gym climbers. To my knowledge, none of the routes I or any other local put up were retro bolts. If this is not the case, I welcome a discussion with any prior FA regarding the route. No one has reached out to me or any other developer. Obvious gear lines were left untouched but anchors were installed as topping out is trespassing. Old crap hardware was replaced one-for-one. Also, the SCC provided no funding or bolts to developers. People came out of pocket to equip all of the routes and anchors, gear lines included. Regarding the "defamation" (you need to look this word up) of natural/historical artifacts, I assume you are talking about Painted Bluff. Realize that none of the local "community" put these routes up. On the contrary, we worked with TVA to close off certain routes and preserve these artifacts. We organized a clean up, hauled 2 boat loads of climber generated trash, and removed graffiti (painted route names) from the crag in accordance with newly established TVA policies. Recognize also the the same people who have been the major developers at YB have served as property managers for some of the areas listed above, preserving them for future generations. Sam

This is so amazing.
I mean....
Read it back to yourself, Sam.

And bravo on the dictionary suggestion.
I got distracted by the BS.

BHMBen wrote:Regarding Yellow Bluff: Tilt-a-Whirl (5.10c/d) was retrobolted I believe early on during the effort by local climbers to install anchors. Very disappointed to see that. Bernard Wolfe established that route back in the 80s.

This route was bolted by Sierzant on the day Yellow Bluff was officially re-opened. I'm sure he had no knowledge of it being an established route, and the SCC folks in charge were fine with this being done. There was a lot of bolting done that day; in fact, if Will Eccleston had not stepped in and onsighted Orange Crush on gear, that well-known trad line would also have been bolted (the bolt locations had already been marked with chalk).

I think there are two sides to this coin. On the one hand, the SCC definitely dropped the ball at Yellow Bluff by allowing all the bolting on opening day. The sensible thing would have been to have a moratorium on new routes until the history of the place was documented.

On the other hand, if the people who know what's what at an area don't step forward to share their knowledge, then to a certain extent they've lost their right to complain about retro-bolting of old lines. The re-opening of Yellow Bluff was not exactly a secret; Curt and Betty Merchant were among several on the scene who had a history of climbing there, and they didn't raise any objections. Bernard wasn't there, though I'm sure he was aware of the re-opening. Shannon supposedly has detailed documentation of Yellow Bluff, but my repeated requests for that documentation went nowhere.

I'm kind of done with the SCC after being burned by them in the past, but at the same time, I get a little impatient with sanctimonious comments from the other side (not referring to you, Ben). When I see someone post a comment on a route here on MP saying "this is xxxx that so-and-so did years ago," I'm thinking, well, too bad, you should have posted the correct information first if it's that important to you.

JL

That's a helluva good story about Will. If everyone conducted themselves in such a manner....there really wouldn't be an issue.

So ya'll are saying that since I frequent a crag its my responsibility to manage all the routes? I frequent many crags in the southeast, there is simply not enough time for me to fix them all. This is about as ridiculous as the idea in another thread that once upon a time said that the FA is responsible for the upkeep of hardware on all their routes...impossible.
Also, Ben please do the girdle, I am dying for that thing to see a repeat. Pm me if you need and info or maybe even a belay, I'll be civil, don't worry :)

Also, I wasn't saying not knowing this Chris fellow is an excuse for the route to be retro bolted. I'm just defending the Huntsville crowd by saying it wasn't one of us that did it or the surrounding squeeze job routes.

Not putting that responsibility on your shoulders at all, just saying that it's a situation that needs to be addressed. It seems there were LOTS of people willing to go over there and fuck it all up. It's a shame that it would fall to you, and you alone, to fix it. I'm guessing you would get your ass lynched if you tried to recruit help during a trail day to REMOVE bolts though...and that sucks.

Jim is right though....if done properly, you'll never even know there was a bolt there. It goes like this:

Twist the bolt until it either comes out or twists off. (This is where the cheater pipe comes in.)
Tap what's left of it back down in the hole.
Pulverize some rock that you can pick up along the base and mix it with body filler...Grey for granite, Red for Sandstone.
Fill the hole with your mixture and top off with a little more of your rock dust as it sets.

Smooth and pretty. It works. I've done it.

Ryan7crew wrote:So ya'll are saying that since I frequent a crag its my responsibility to manage all the routes? I frequent many crags in the southeast, there is simply not enough time for me to fix them all. This is about as ridiculous as the idea in another thread that once upon a time said that the FA is responsible for the upkeep of hardware on all their routes...impossible. Also, Ben please do the girdle, I am dying for that thing to see a repeat. Pm me if you need and info or maybe even a belay, I'll be civil, don't worry :)

Well, you have basically allowed that you are, or are all up in, the "Huntsville scene"....
And I know of you guys via other folks and your guiding exploits.
So....yeah, I guess I am suggesting you and Sam do your part, take charge, and clean that mess up.

Talk to Whit Arnold sometime....Cullman local, climber for twenty years.....a good friend of mine.
He'll explain the history for you.

To elaborate on what I am getting at...
There's a mature crew in Birmingham who take care of Steele...and I am nearby.
Adam Henry and the gym folks have LRC.
Griffin kind of floats and has seen some new development, but it's locale seems somewhat protected from shenanigans.
Shannon and myself watch over YC.
Sandrock is lost, but has it's own vibe that is now immovable.
You see the Georgians addressing Tallulah.
Jamestown is well cared for by none other than Scott Perkins and Mr. Mekolites, for the most part.
The TWall, although it has seen assault of late, will always remain clean because the history is there and because guys like Kirk and Tyler are still in the game.
Lost Wall and Sunset are protected by their respective park/land managers.
Etc., etc....

What y'all have in Huntsville at YB and Painted Bluff, whether you like being called a J.A.-sympathizer or not, is sorry.

Again.....
It's very much akin to Foster's, Sandrock, Deep Creek, and other trampled areas.

John mentioned that Betty and Curt didn't say anything...
Well, so what.

Yeah, man....
This is a charge to do right.
Your access group ain't.
Y'all do it.

And, P.S....
I'll let you know about the Girdle.
The Indian Lookout is the jumping off place, yes?

Ryan7crew wrote:So ya'll are saying that since I frequent a crag its my responsibility to manage all the routes?

No, fix it or not, your choice. All I was saying is don't kid yourself with a BS cop out that 'you are respecting the rock.' Last I checked, bolts weren't rock, and putting bolts where you can get gear is about as disrespectful of the rock as you can get short of chipping. Plus, that raises the suspicion that the real reason is, that, 'gosh, yeah, they're retro bolts but the route is so good (I have no idea whether it is or not) and so many people like to climb it this way, and it would be so scary that it would never get repeated (as if that should matter), that we should just look the other way.' Take that attitude and you will have every last climb retro bolted as they have done in many places in Europe.

And sax, as I said earlier, it does not matter whether a route has been documented. If it has been led on gear there will be gear placements, and if someone bolts it out of ignorance of the FA I would hope that when informed they would say, 'Sorry, didn't know,' and pull the gear themselves. But that's probably wishful thinking, usually the bolter just gets defensive and belligerant, (as JA did when confronted with his retro bolting climbs that were in the goddam guide. I should have let Sporty beat some sense into him, but JA is truly a lost cause.) But, too bad, if it's a route one of my friends or me put up, and there are many undocumented ones, the bolts are coming out.

Ben,

I'd just like to point out that two of the folks you're applauding for doing a great job protecting crags are very active SCC board members.

And Paul -

Regarding your comment: "I happen to know for a fact that some SCC higher ups are monitoring this thread, making hour long phonecalls, and scrambling to do damage control...Rallying the koolaid drinkin minions."

Duh. Of course they are. It's their job. Earlier in the thread you sounded like someone who was getting a bit fired up because he had legitimate concerns that were not being answered. You are starting to sound nasty and petty.

In my opinion - and it's an opinion that I've had for quite a while - the openings and development of both Yellow Bluff and Deep Creek were poorly handled. The SCC could definitely stand to have some more well-defined procedures in place for such activities, and you might very well see that going forward. The SCC could also DEFINITELY stand to be more transparent, although having wide open board meetings is a pretty transparent thing to do (and they have always been open).

Will Eccleston wrote: And Paul You are starting to sound nasty and petty.

I'm just gettin started...

When are we gonna have a serious discussion about the crack bolting? It's gonna get real good then.

Rhett Burroughs wrote:Ben, sometimes to go rock climbing, you actually need access to the rocks :) I will gladly pay a entry fee to climb somewhere. Sorry if you get hurt rock climbing. Its dangerous and sometimes people get hurt when they over step their boundaries. Sometimes its just a bad unfortunate event. Tallulah is a well protected place so getting hurt there should only happen by someone that doesn't know how to place gear. Its not Big Green where your looking at total lower body dismemberment if you blow it. If they are shutting down Tallulah they need to shut down all access. That is what I'm pissed about. It isn't fair, but its the government so its not supposed to be. Land of the free right? How did the song go??? "Your land is my land....?" Glad my money over the past years has gone to making sure that bird doesn't die now. Maybe if the government wanted to do something they would band pesticides by farmers so that the birds could prosper more. Fuck it I'm leaving to go out west anyways. You guys have fun at Yonah watching rednecks go in. "The cause of the peregrine falcon disappearance was pesticides, specifically DDT. In the middle of the century, DDT was sprayed on farmland and the chemical made its way into the food chain. Peregrine falcons are top predators and thus absorbed large amounts of DDT from their prey like fish and other birds. " <--Weird how rock climbers don't put pesticides in our chalk -"http://www.nwf.org/wildlife/wildlife-library/birds/peregrine-falcon.aspx"-

My feet are broke.

I broke my feet.

Will...

Yessir, I am aware of their position with the SCC and have been in touch with both over the course of the last few months.
"Very active"....maybe.
Able to move a better, more transparent agenda forward....doesn't seem to be the case.
Seems like nothing that is against the tides of the current leaderships agenda, which is less than sustainable/prudent/conservation-minded, will get moved on.

Open board meetings?
The meeting I attended, like I said previously, was laughable.
Kirk was sitting immediately to my left.

On one side of the room....representatives who are currently dealing with the places I mention above, asking for some comment on:

Recent findings concerning raising funds for bolts that have trickled their way off of SCC property....
The state of things at Yellow Bluff, LRC, and the TWall, Bee Rock....
Caslte Rock and Deep Creek....
Etc.

On the other side....well, I'll say I saw one young fellow talk long and loud enough to drone out much more tenured positions.
While his cohorts looked on in a very naive stupor....
Hailing each other as the harbingers of their own brand of "Wilderness Socialism" as it has been dubbed.
The hierarchy of the SCC organization, the momentum they have with the explosion of the user group, their alliances with "local" businesses and big corporations, and their Non-profit status is a great recipe for losing sight....or at least getting things twisted.
And that's what seems to have happened.
The Vision is different.

There were thousands of dollars in donation money lost that evening, if I had to speculate.
Of course, the SCC ain't concerned about that 'cause they can always throw a fundraiser at Stone Summit or count on their parties at HP40 to rake in the dough.

Of concern, maybe not touched on then, is the lack of contact with the Tallulah State Park people and some dangling opportunities that are not being moved on.
But that's already been addressed.

And, let me say that if Paul sounds nasty and/or petty, it's because he is righteously indignant about his position.
Having been a Chattanooga and North Georgia aficionado, climbing for well over 25 years, schooled by none other than Chris Chesnutt, he's somewhat sensitive about the way things are going.
He's looking at the future through his son's eyes.
We don't want him to think this "new normal" is "the way".

I got this Ben, but thanks.

Attempts to marginalize me by pointing out that I can be a bit crass are laughable. To quote Will..."Duh."

Lots to address. I'm not going to comment on the ad hominem attacks as they get us nowhere.

Also, let's clear this up. I'm not in any way currently affiliated with the SCC. I've worked with them in the past, particularly on the Painted Bluff issue, but I am definitely not a huge fan of everything they do. I have not talked to anyone on the board. Heck, I've only ever been to one meeting and that was specifically to discuss the damage to the historical artifacts at Painted Bluff.

The Tilt-a-whirl history is clearly laid out in saxfiend's post above. I share his sentiments regarding the opening day bolting policies, however; I was not there that day nor did I even live in the area at the time. The information was brought to me second hand nearly 4 years after it was bolted. I'm as much responsible for the removal of this route as any other climber in the state, save Sierzant.

Regarding the other route Ben mentioned near the property line, if it is the route I'm thinking of (last one before the property boundary over the big roof) that route was rebolted by locals. The route had 2 very old bolts on it as well as a single bolt hanging belay at the lip of the roof. The protection bolts were replaced 1 for 1. An additional bolt was added to back up the ancient single bolt belay as well as a 2 bolt belay at the end given the nature of property boundary. I'm can't recall if Ryan or I were involved but it was done by Huntvillians. This route may have been retro bolted before the area was closed long ago but again we did a 1 for 1 replacement on the old star dryvin protection bolts.

I know Whit, we have climbed together on numerous occasions at YB and other local areas, we started climbing at roughly the same time. He mentioned to us a while ago that you were unhappy with the development at YB and that you would contact us with your concerns. I gave him my contact information to share with you. That was over a year ago and you never reached out to us until now on a public forum.

Also, consider that your good friend, Whit, knowingly retro bolted a route called Diamond Maker put up by a local climber. The route was established onsight ground up. Whit did so even after the FA added a single bolt to protect the crux (formerly run out above a poor wire) creating a safe, mixed climb. He has also requested to retro bolt a adequately protected nearby route, Reach Around, and the FA (Ryan) has threatened to chop it if it goes in.

None of the Huntsville locals have sunk a single bolt into Painted Bluff. All that development was out of Chattanooga. Our community has been out there cleaning up and actively working with the TVA to preserve the artifacts. What went down out there is absolutely disgraceful and we are doing what we can to fix it. I'm not sure how many times I need to say this.

Jim: Again, if an FA came to us and told us a route we put in was a retro, I'd totally be game for removing it. To this day, this has never happened and the offer still stands, including the route at the property boundary.

Also, someone needs to get after the girdle, such a great adventure.

Sam