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Tallulah Gorge Peregrines

shannon stegg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 0

How did we go from preserve and protect, to buy and bolt? Money from the masses. We are our own worse enemy!

Todd Wells · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 1

I would quibble with the term "we" as it pertains to Chattanooga climbing, Shannon; those sponsoring the wholesale bolting here are ultimately the enemy of longterm climbing access, history and environmental preservation. And the Chattanooga cancer is spreading. How long will land managers and land owners--here and elsewhere--tolerate the depredations of sport climbers: installed bolts, chains, perma-draws, graffiti, trash and a swinish sense of entitlement? Who knows, but I would suggest picking an area and defending it from bolters. And notifying the sponsors of access organizations, like the SCC, that consistently violate their charters. That will slow the cancer's spread at least.
And, oh the irony: an SCC trail day at Castle Rock that combines good environmental stewardship--trail maintenance--with the bolting of "a few more warm ups" using donor-funded "gear." The weasels are clearly in control of that hen house.

JohnWesely Wesely · · Lander · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 585

If you guys are just going to beat around bush and continue making vague allusions, then this thread has really just devolved to unproductive chest thumping.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

In an era dominated by social media and a rapid spread of information via the internet, why not go ahead and get the ball rolling on exposing these issues? Things seem pretty black and white to me. The only issue is the vast majority of climbers support what is going on. The old guard are only getting older and spread thinner. Think about how many local climbers get their start at places like sandrock and foster falls. Without being taught otherwise, they will think that is the norm and is an ok practice. Eventually the classics at T wall will be retro bolted. It's not a matter of if but when. Without people actually fighting against it, the future is pretty obvious. Just think about the percentage of new climbers Johnny Arms 'mentors' compared to anyone else.

Bio80 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2015 · Points: 0

Hey all- I'm not even sure what this thread is about anymore, but I and all of my climbing partners typically share information on all bird nests near cliffs, so that we can avoid those routes until the birds fledge. Shit, I had a friend wait a week to try his project because some
Canyon wrens were nesting in the crack.
Incredibly surprised and frankly saddened by everyone's response to this closure. It is false that climbing doesn't effect falcons- even climbing near the nest can cause the adults to leave for long enough that eggs or chicks fail. Unless you're an avian biologist, don't try to interpret the birds behaviour. It's not as simple as it might seem.
Facts are that climbing near nests can effect them, I always thought climbers were respectful of this. I live in the 'wild west' and I can assure you that most (always a couple losers, but mostly) of the climbers I know are incredibly respectful and used to avoiding nesting birds during the few precious months a year they breed. Endangered, not endangered, ugly and cute wildlife all deserve more respect than your sick send.
Thanks to jon for the post.

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
JohnWesely wrote:If you guys are just going to beat around bush and continue making vague allusions, then this thread has really just devolved to unproductive chest thumping.
If you investigate, I believe you'll find that there has already been a very succinct and direct address presented to the SCC and it has fallen on deaf ears.
There is a concerned contingent that has effectively thrown their hands up about the state of things in Chatt and with the SCC.
Like Todd Wells indicates, it's left to picking a crag and defending it.

I hope someone guards the gate at the TWall....it's already showing signs of decay.

I've been pretty clear about the state of things in AL in this thread, but let's take score....
Dead and dying: Sandrock, Yellow Bluff.
In serious threat: Little River Canyon and, believe it or not, Yellow Creek...
Currently "defended": Jamestown, Steele.

And it's fairly evident the state of things in GA, given the topic and subsequent shutting down of Tallulah.

I'll let someone else address Cahttanooga in depth...as I have my hands full in AL and don't have all the details.
However, if you piece together some of the hints herein, you'd find....
Rampant, SCC funded bolting and permadraw campaigns emanating from Chatt and rendered at places such as Castle Rock, Deep Creek, TWall, Little River Canyon....
Wanton and illegal trespass and bolting of Bee Rock, the Dihedrals, and other private property at the hands of the SCCs "officers", "reps", etc.
A diversion from the SCC's mission and directives is not only clear, but is being driven by those at the helm with total abandon.

No one is hinting or beating around the bush, as far as I can see.
Will Eccleston · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 25

I was very actively involved in the SCC for about 13 years, and was a board member for 2ish years before I stepped down. About 50% of the reason was having a kid and just needing more time. The other 50% was that politics made me miserable. Note that I am not condemning the SCC for being a political organization. Every access org, by their definition, must be political.

I'm not going to spend much time addressing the original purpose of this thread other than to say that I generally support peregrine closures, but think that they could be less generalized and more specialized, and that would benefit climbers AND birds. But I'm also aware that specialization might require man-hours that the parks just don't have.

By far, the greater stink in this thread is whether or not the SCC is working toward access for climbers in the best and most responsible way.

First, I will admit that I have been very uninvolved for more than two years now, and a lot has happened that I'm completely unaware of. Also, I am, more or less, an elitist trad snob. I would not, for a second, agree with many on the SCC board when it comes to bolting ethics. But there are, in fact, trad snobs that are still active board members as well.

I would agree wholeheartedly that the SCC is "scattered" and "loose", but it's entirely inaccurate to say that the org only cares about Chattanooga, or Birmingham and Chattanooga, or whatever. Ever hear of Boat Rock? Quite a number of folks from Tennessee whined for years about the Boat Rock purchase, and then after some of the Alabama acquisitions, they whined about the SCC's lack of work in Tennessee. Ultimately the SCC is concerned with any access issue in the TAG area, and interested in offering peripheral support to local orgs everywhere else in the southeast. It's not about what crag or state YOU think is important. It's about having a unified community that has political and financial power when the time comes to use either or both. The work you see being done at any particular time has to do with the opportunities that have become available as well as merely having a person that wants to focus on a particular place at any given time.

If there is a crag that you feel is not getting the attention it deserves, the SCC would LOVE it if you would come forward and say "Hey, I think the SCC needs a mature, intelligent, rational individual to approach the staff at Dingledorf State Park and try to implement a plan that is more beneficial to climbers, and if no one else is working on it, I'd love to be that person."

Regarding the SCC bolting stance - as far as I know, some of what you're claiming is just plain inaccurate. The SCC has, to my knowledge, NEVER condoned permadraws at T-Wall. In fact, folks working on behalf of the SCC have actually spent time removing draws and even bolts there. Then again, I don't agree with some of the bolting that has happened in certain places in the last few years, and I've made that clear, but a lot of that was done by individuals not working on behalf of the SCC, at places that really weren't in the hands of the SCC. In my mind, if you're passionate about this particular issue, the far better approach (than flaming) would be to assemble a small group of like-minded folks and attend the next SCC board meeting. They're open to anyone and everyone, and you might very well change the trajectory of the organization.

Again, there is political and financial strength in numbers. I still believe wholeheartedly in the mission and relevance of the SCC, the CCC, and the Access Fund, but I will NEVER agree with everything they do. Hell, I don't even agree, ethically, with everything that I've done in the past myself. But please try to find a constructive way to move all of this forward in a positive way, rather than disparaging a group that has spent TONS of time and energy working for access over the years, and inarguably has accomplished many amazing and revolutionary things. I'd really like to see the legacy continue.

Will Eccleston

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

Will...
The first line of my reply indicates that a meeting of concerned parties has already convened.
That meeting was met with childish grandstanding on behalf of the SCC and a clear lack of traction.
The meeting was called by some of the most tenured, generous, and experienced climbers in the SE.
It was a surreal experience, really....the SCC basically offering a slap in the face to anyone (like I said: well-known, well-funded, life-experienced climbers) who derides the current atmosphere of it all.

And I'd be happy to share evidence of SCC funding of bolts/draws/anchors at places they shouldn't be....
As I have above.

Point being, efforts are being deployed (in AL and in GA) to address issues that the SCC is ignoring...
See above concerning Tallulah talks, as an example.
There's other stuff happening in AL right now.
But no one is going to them and saying, "Hey, I'll take point on this with the SCC's backing and in the SCC's name," because the SCC is not abiding by their own charter.

Thanks for being the main laborforce behind the composting crapper at Steele.
Those are the kind of tangible efforts that need deployed.

Where's the TWall crapper?

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Any org with a crack bolting President, that uses photos of bolted cracks in their promotional material, has zero credibility with me...no matter what they've done.

DavisMeschke Guillotine · · Pinedale, WY · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 225

Sad to see the state of affairs in the SE take a trip down this road. This may have been covered, but what rights does the SCC have to bolt? Is this a personal decision on their part or have they been granted this right by another organizations, i.e. state parks, landowners, etc?

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
DavisMeschke wrote:Sad to see the state of affairs in the SE take a trip down this road. This may have been covered, but what rights does the SCC have to bolt? Is this a personal decision on their part or have they been granted this right by another organizations, i.e. state parks, landowners, etc?
Davis...
It depends.
Ultimately, it is all of our responsibility.

The SCC could promote much better/sustainable practices, but....
You see that promotional flyer?
That ain't right.

Take Prentice Cooper...
TWall, parts of Suck Creek, etc.
As I understand it, one must seek the approval of the State Management, there and at other places like Lost Wall, before fixed anchors are installed.

At Tallulah, as an example, most of recent cleanup has been done by Stephen F with approval by the Park Staff as he is known to them and comes across as highly professional and knowledgeable.

Somewhere like Whitesides, it's really up to the user group (as you see in posts above) to deal.

Sadly, at places like Yellow Bluff, in near proximity to J.A.-evangelized gym-climbers and SCC-supported ethics......
Where there is a "community" of about five dudes with drills...
Retro bolts, grid bolting, defamation of natural/historical artifacts, and poor user-code are resulting in Sandrock-like abuses.

On the contrary, Steele, Jamestown, Tallulah (when open), and most of the NC crags demonstrate decent, sparing, sustainable tactics while preserving nature and the history of the area.
As a member of the SGHAAC, you have full/easy access to these spots and should visit with someone who can show you the way...Ol' Stegg, as an example.
Or come to Alabama and we'll do some cleanup.
JohnWesely Wesely · · Lander · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 585
BHMBen wrote: If you investigate, I believe you'll find that there has already been a very succinct and direct address presented to the SCC and it has fallen on deaf ears.
If that isn't vague... You could have used that same space to educate us all on exactly what you are talking about. Right now, all I know is at some point in time, someone adressed the scc on something.

BHMBen wrote: Dead and dying: Sandrock, Yellow Bluff. In serious threat: Little River Canyon and, believe it or not, Yellow Creek... Currently "defended": Jamestown, Steele.
I know for a fact that sandrock has been the way it is for at least a decade, and it didn't exactly seem like a new development at the time. Even with all the guidebook attention, I don't see hordes at Little River Canyon. I spent two weeks climbing there last year in perfect conditons and didn't see another party the entire time.

BHMBen wrote: However, if you piece together some of the hints herein, you'd find.... Rampant, SCC funded bolting and permadraw campaigns emanating from Chatt and rendered at places such as Castle Rock, Deep Creek, TWall, Little River Canyon....
Not really interested in playing Sherlock Holmes here. Are routes actually being retroed here, or are these new routes?

I am not trying to be antagonizing here, but if want to gain any traction, it would be nice to know exactly what you are talking about.
BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

NO. 1

"If that isn't vague... You could have used that same space to educate us all on exactly what you are talking about. Right now, all I know is at some point in time, someone adressed the scc on something.

NO. 2

I know for a fact that sandrock has been the way it is for at least a decade, and it didn't exactly seem like a new development at the time. Even with all the guidebook attention, I don't see hordes at Little River Canyon. I spent two weeks climbing there last year in perfect conditons and didn't see another party the entire time.

NO. 3

Not really interested in playing Sherlock Holmes here. Are routes actually being retroed here, or are these new routes? I am not trying to be antagonizing here, but if want to gain any traction, it would be nice to know exactly what you are talking about."

JW, I'll do this, in brief, because I am waiting on sesame chicken and red wine to come forthwith from the house...
It's a beautiful night here in Northeast Alabama.

#1. Myself, several sustainable practice minded people (I'll not publish a roster), and the SCC managers (check the website) met...12 weeks ago I think....to address YB, bolting/draws at TWall/LRC, and transparency....
As I said, deaf ears.
That is all.

#2. You got lucky at LRC.
Concerning Sandrock, reference Jim's post above.
It's been that way for ten years???
What about twenty or thirty years ago?
90's or, gasp, 80's??
You ever looked at a history book?
What's wrong ten years ago, may be wrong now.
Parachute pants?
Hell, cigarette pants on lil' boys.

#3. Read the thread and do some elementary thinking or email me.
You like Tallulah?
The park is watching.
You want a list??
It's long.

Vague enough?
This ain't that venue.
I like campfires and cold beers.
Let's get together sometime soon.
You are from GA, yes?

Sam England · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 410

All right Ben. I like a soapbox rant as much as the next guy but you are factually incorrect on many of the things you are posting.

BHMBen wrote:Sadly, at places like Yellow Bluff, in near proximity to J.A.-evangelized gym-climbers and SCC-supported ethics......
The developers of Yellow Bluff, myself included, sadly are not the evangelized gym climbers you think they are. Honestly, it's pretty funny to consider the "thing" we have in Huntsville a climbing gym at all. I'll not get into climbing experience, mine or any other developer, to avoid the aforementioned chest thumping, but suffice to say there is a large amount of experience in the group.

BHMBen wrote:Where there is a "community" of about five dudes with drills...
Realistically, there is only 1 drill. The same one that has been used to replace old rusty 1/4" hardware on the Whiteside headwall, quite a feat for some gym climbers.

BHMBen wrote:Retro bolts, grid bolting, defamation of natural/historical artifacts, and poor user-code are resulting in Sandrock-like abuses.
To my knowledge, none of the routes I or any other local put up were retro bolts. If this is not the case, I welcome a discussion with any prior FA regarding the route. No one has reached out to me or any other developer. Obvious gear lines were left untouched but anchors were installed as topping out is trespassing. Old crap hardware was replaced one-for-one. Also, the SCC provided no funding or bolts to developers. People came out of pocket to equip all of the routes and anchors, gear lines included.

Regarding the "defamation" (you need to look this word up) of natural/historical artifacts, I assume you are talking about Painted Bluff. Realize that none of the local "community" put these routes up. On the contrary, we worked with TVA to close off certain routes and preserve these artifacts. We organized a clean up, hauled 2 boat loads of climber generated trash, and removed graffiti (painted route names) from the crag in accordance with newly established TVA policies.

BHMBen wrote:On the contrary, Steele, Jamestown, Tallulah (when open), and most of the NC crags demonstrate decent, sparing, sustainable tactics while preserving nature and the history of the area.
Recognize also the the same people who have been the major developers at YB have served as property managers for some of the areas listed above, preserving them for future generations.

Sam
JohnWesely Wesely · · Lander · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 585

Ben, live in the Red River Gorge now. Will be back down your way in December though. I will leave the drill at home ;)

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30
mountainproject.com/v/10878…

By sam england
Mar 27, 2014

This route is called Tilt-a-whirl and is a retrobolted gear line from back in the day. 5.11

Just sayin...
Ryan7crew · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 485

Paul Barnes:
As another member of the 5 local "grid bolter clan" in Huntsville, get you facts straight. I agree that that route was retrobolted. However, this was done by an out-of-towner. Off the top of my head I can't say who, but I can guarantee it was not by any of the local developers. Any bolts that I have placed have been completely independent lines and not easily protected by gear (I am not trying to create a scare fest at my local crag). Either that or it has been a one-to-one replacements (at Sandrock and the Whitesides Headwall), and this I do only after getting the approval of the first ascensionist. Actually, of the several new gear lines that have gone up since YB was reopened, I have FA'd several of them and have defended them against retro-bolts.
I was the area rep for Jamestown for several years (I stepped away to finish school), one of the "well defended" crags from the grid bolters of modern times. I agree with you that the SCC hasn't done the best things over the years, but the Huntsville crowd doesn't have much to do with that. Any bolts that I, or any of the Huntsville developers have place, have been purchased with our own money and placed with our own drill.

Edit: Just clicked your link. This Chris Sierzant fellow, never heard of him.

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

I did not assert any facts about your beloved crag that you claim to have protected so well against retros. Sam did that for me...well over a year ago it seems.

If an out of towner that you've never heard of can come to your crag and retro trad lines while you sit idly by and do nothing...well...your credibility suffers as a result.

Nice try though...what else y'all got?

Sam England · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 410

Paul,

What are you just sayin? Did you even bother to read what I posted above? I never asserted that there were no retro bolts at YB. I just wanted to clarify that none of our local community put that route (or the other retro bolt I know of) up. I found out that it was a retro second hand from and have never heard from the FA. Even so, are you arguing that I'm somehow responsible to chop the route? Because,

A. I didn't put up.
B. I haven't been contacted by the FA. (Is it you?)
C. No one has expressed interest in it's removal to me.
D. I'm not the property manager.

It's no matter though. Go ahead and assume we are retro bolting gym climbers armed with bolt guns if it fits your world view. I'm going to keep on keeping on.

EDIT: To clarify further, Tilt-a-whirl went in on the crags opening day. The history of the route was not clear at that point. It was discovered later that it had previously been a gear line. The new bolts followed a similar path but had a different finish.

Ryan7crew · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 485

Paul,
We have given much thought into chopping it, and the adjacent squeeze jobs. However, in the end, I thought the best course of action was to simply respect the rock and not litter it with a bunch of chopped bolts in such a visible area. I agree with you that no respect has been shown in the past by retrobolting and squeezing in lines. Maybe an effort should be made to camoflouge the hangers so they stand out less, but I think at this point chopping every unsuitable route is the wrong approach. Also, the FA, (that's Wolfe right?) has never approached any of us, online or in person, and asked specifically for it to be chopped as far as I am aware.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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