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Worst Belay Ever

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Common Bear, I'm not saying to keep your climber in sight at the expense of doing something else unsafe (standing away from the wall, standing under loose rock). But if your standing at the base of a normal route with no other safety considerations and you can see me, then watch your climber. Not the climber on the next route. Not the girl sitting next to you. Not the ground in front of your feet. Watch your climber unless there is some good reason not. "My neck hurts" is not a good reason.

At least that's what I expect of my climbing partners. Of course, you are free to have people belay you according to your expectations.

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
Greg D wrote:Well just for fun (hopefully no death) what is the worst belay you have seen?
Climbing friend,

Just drive yourself to Rifle. I go to the climbing rocks there some recent times passing, and many are belayers of excellent quality, but surprisingly many peoples of the climbing rocks seem to have the general inattentiveness, no handing the grigri brake strand either for short amounts of time or when device already locked off, the constant resting of hands on the grigri while belaying (yes it may be fine, but is against the manufacturer's instructions, lazy, and not a practice most best), the doing of the standing too far back from the wall, and most foolish of all - some of the peoples seem to believe that a large loop of slack hanging down provides a soft leader catch instead of merely longer fall, but perhaps they would not be having of the rudimentary childhood understanding of the physics.

Also I once see some noobs of the climbing rocks at nearby crag of Pup Tent of Solitude. Leader he climbs up a few bolts. Belayer he has unbelievable loop of slack touching the ground, causing scenario of sure-fire decking. Belayer he becomes upset about tangles in the rope, proceeds to take the leader off belay, mess with the tangles of rope, and put him back on belay, all while the leader he climbs on.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
csproul wrote:Common Bear, I'm not saying to keep your climber in sight at the expense of doing something else unsafe (standing away from the wall, standing under loose rock). But if your standing at the base of a normal route with no other safety considerations and you can see me, then watch your climber. Not the climber on the next route. Not the girl sitting next to you. Not the ground in front of your feet. Watch your climber unless there is some good reason not. "My neck hurts" is not a good reason. At least that's what I expect of my climbing partners. Of course, you are free to have people belay you according to your expectations.
im simply saying that theres tons of routes ... and there plenty of folks that climb mostly these type of routes ... for which youll need to belay primarily by feel especially on the upper portions of a pitch

if i cant trust my partner to belay me by feel, then i have no business climbing anything that isnt a simple short straight line climb ... its not like "hey dude i only trust you for the first 30 feet, after than since you cant see me i dont trust you anymore!!!"

as an aside... a HAWTAY (guy or girl whatever yr preference) is ALWAYS an excuse for belaying by feel

;)
Slartibartfast · · Magrathea · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
eli poss wrote: it's a matter of how much you loosen your grip. when you're paying out slack with an atc the rope is tensioned, allowing you to slide your hand while barely loosening your grip. on a TR belay that tension doesn't happen because you aren't pulling rope out above the device. without the tension, you have to loosen your grip significantly more.
I agree that it's ever so slightly harder to belay TR with this method, but does it really make a difference that matters? I don't think so. Even if your brake hand is slightly looser as you slide it up the strand, you're still going to be able to lock up in no time, unless you're fully not paying attention. A long as the brake hand is wrapped all the way around the rope at all times, I have no problem with seeing slack pulled in this way. I find it helps to make short, quick pulls so that I don't have to move my hand past any droopy loops of rope on the rake side
Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

Reading Comprehension is a real skill.
Unfortunately we aren't all real skilled.

If your climber is in sight, you should probably put your eyes on them every now and then. That's not the same as, "dummies can't belay by feel."

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Nathan Self wrote:Reading Comprehension is a real skill. Unfortunately we aren't all real skilled. If your climber is in sight, you should probably put your eyes on them every now and then. That's not the same as, "dummies can't belay by feel."
its also not the same as "stare at my ass all the time and never take yr eyes off"

one trick with overhanging bulges on crags is to walk out a few feet for a quick glance at your climber and then walk back in quickly

however this imposed its own risks, primarily if yr climber falls while yr doing this or you trip

for the most part in this case yr still belaying by feel

one does not need to constantly stare at a climbers azz to be a "safe" belayer ... if one did then you would only be "safe" in a VERY narrow set of circumstances

a glance every now and then is usually sufficient ...

the exception is of course on climbs that are runnout where the belayed needs to be VERY active ... like dashing off in the opposite direction in a fall

the second exception is with new leaders ... when you probably need to correct basic mistakes, but then they should only be on fairly simple pitches anyways

but for the most part if you cant belay mostly by feel, yr not a competent belayer

;)
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Most of the time I get self-proclaimed "competent belayer" belaying by feel alone, I get a whole lot of short roping.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
csproul wrote:Most of the time I get self-proclaimed "competent belayer" belaying by feel alone, I get a whole lot of short roping.
well then you must get "short roped" all the time on the upper pitches of a multi or once you pull overhanging bulges ...

cause yr climber cant see you very well then

;)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Jake Jones wrote: Line of sight is line of sight. It's either there or not. What does the upper pitches of anything have to do with anything? Does increased elevation affect your eyesight?
the upper part of pitches are frequently out of site around here on multi ...

not to mention that 60m out with sun glare it can be quite hard to see what yr climber is doing even with LOS ...

for example good luck being able to tell if he/she is pulling up a two feet of rope to clip at that distance ... looking at em at that distance wont prevent "short roping"

in fact i cant think of a 60m+ pitch right now where you actually have a good view of yr climber from the"best" belay position around here ... im sure theres one, just not on any climb i can think of

we really shouldnt be climbing those climbs i guess

;)
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
bearbreeder wrote: well then you must get "short roped" all the time on the upper pitches of a multi or once you pull overhanging bulges ... cause yr climber cant see you very well then ;)
You can argue belaying by feel all you want, but the fact is that it is much easier and more effective to anticipate a clip when you see a climber approaching a clip. No matter your "competence" level, you will short rope people more often when you can't see them. You're completely fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Sometimes not seeing your climber is unavoidable (out of sight) or more safe (loose rock)and a little short roping is an acceptable trade-off. Other times, like your average half rope-length sport route, it is not. When the situation calls for it, I expect my belayer to watch me, not short rope me, and provide an appropriate catch. I also expect them to know what is appropriate. If you can't (at the very least attempt to) do that, don't belay me. End of story.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
csproul wrote: You can argue belaying by feel all you want, but the fact is that it is much easier and more effective to anticipate a clip when you see a climber approaching a clip. No matter your "competence" level, you will short rope people more often when you can't see them. You're completely fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Sometimes not seeing your climber is unavoidable (out of sight) or more safe (loose rock)and a little short roping is an acceptable trade-off. Other times, like your average half rope-length sport route, it is not. When the situation calls for it, I expect my belayer to watch me, not short rope me, and provide an appropriate catch. I also expect them to know what is appropriate. If you can't (at the very least attempt to) do that, don't belay me. End of story.
so basically a VERY limited circumstances of climbing where you DONT need to belay by feel

and remember its ONLY certain sport routes ...

anything with a decent bulge, which was the story i posted earlier about rockfall, you need to step away from the wall ..

otherwise stare at the cute girls/guys azzz all the time !!!

;)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Jake Jones wrote: Ok. Around there. csproul, the guy you were commenting to, lives in CA. Not every route is characteristic of the ones in Squamish. Right. I agree. But maybe this is a Squamish thing as well, but I've had sun glare at the base of routes. Still not really a symptom of, or dedicated to upper pitches. Still having trouble figuring out how 60 m up on upper pitches is different than 60m up on say... 2nd pitch. Uh... I guess. I mean you're obviously the expert. winkysmileythingy
heres an example ...

merci me is a classic 5.8ish start to the grand wall ... with a single 70 you can link it (though you better not fall)

see the right below the large diagonal overhang? ... thats where the belay is if you link the pitches

its roughly 50-60m up (~60-70m as the rope runs due to angles) ....

for normal mortals, yr not going to see diddly squat what yr climber is doing by the time they get close to there

and i do stand corrected that i couldnt think of any pitches where you can "see" yr climber 60m up ... heres one !!!

Not quite to the first bolt.

note photo was taken from MP and is not mine

;)
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
bearbreeder wrote: so basically a VERY limited circumstances of climbing where you DONT need to belay by feel and remember its ONLY certain sport routes ... anything with a decent bulge, which was the story i posted earlier about rockfall, you need to step away from the wall .. otherwise stare at the cute girls/guys azzz all the time !!! ;)
Maybe it's a "VERY limited circumstances" where you climb, but those circumstances are very common in other places. I'm not sure how your average half rope-length sport climb is somehow a limited circumstance. There are thousands of them all over the country. Maybe not in Squish? I wouldn't know as I've never been there.

I don't have the same belay expectations 60m out (and out of sight) on a 12 pitch route in Yosemite as I do for a 20m sport route in NRG. Maybe in your world, you expect the same belay in different circumstances.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
csproul wrote: Maybe it's a "VERY limited circumstances" where you climb, but those circumstances are very common in other places. I don't have the same belay expectations 60m out (and out of sight) on a 12 pitch route in Yosemite as I do for a 20m sport route in NRG. Maybe in your world, you expect the same belay in different circumstances.
well heres a very popular trad climb out here ... 25m

sentry box 12a

the best belay position and the normal start is tucked into that little corner and on a boulder with rocks all over ... in otherwords its hard to move around

now some folks do step out and try to "keep sight" of the climber but ive seem bad things happen with that

basically if you cant belay by feel, you shouldnt be cragging out here ...

as a side note when mr croft went for the 2nd ascent of this route, the rope drag was so bad that it blew his onsight attempt

to put it simply theres many a "cragging" climb around here where youll need to belay by feel

;)
Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

Oh goodness...people were talking about not watching the climber IN THE GYM, and he's going on about bulges high up on a multi-pitch. Talk about non-sequiter....

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

And there's many where you don't. Watch when you can/should, don't when you shouldn't/can't. Is that really so hard to agree with or do you just like arguing for arguments sake?

IME most of the not-watching is just out of laziness, not out of necessity.

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
csproul wrote:And there's many where you don't. Watch when you can/should, don't when you shouldn't. Is that really so hard to agree with or do you just like arguing for arguments sake?
Climbing friend,

Is this perhaps another example of american climber finding most enjoyable the internet wang-slapping fight?
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
csproul wrote:And there's many where you don't. Watch when you can/should, don't when you shouldn't. Is that really so hard to agree with or do you just like arguing for arguments sake?
no im simply saying that if yr belayer is not competent to belay by feel ... hes not competent to belay beyond the simplest climbs ...

if thats all what the climber and belayer wants to do ... then thats absolutely their choice

a competent belayer doesnt always need to stare at yr azz all the time ... once they get a few bolts up a quick glance every so often is more than sufficient ... especially outside the gym

the gym i rarely go to these days, there are plenty of climbs where the climber would have to step sufficiently away from the wall to see the last clips on steep overhanging roofs ... always risky if yr much lighter

;)
Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

When I see random belayers not watching their climber, they're usually just not belaying. Sure, when competent belayers look away--or the route necessitates--they belay soley by feel. Not everyone does.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Well, I guess I'll agree with the first part of this statement. A competent belayer can manage just fine without seeing you. We'll just disagree on the second. I don't care if I'm a few clips up, if I repeatedly look down at my belayer and he/she is staring at their feet and "occasionally" glancing up at me, they won't be my climbing partner for very long.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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