Riding the pig!

So I just got off the Nose not too long ago (don't be stoked, had to bail at Sickle due to an abundance of slow-moving parties in front of us), and my friend and I had a discussion on riding the pig whether or not it is safe or advisable to ride on a rigged pulley backed up by fixing the end of the rope just after the haul system. I would like to hear other peoples' opinions on riding the pig and considerations to think about. Thanks!

Are you talking about being lowered down with the bag as opposed to rapping with the bag? I have always rapped with the bag, I would not lower the bag with partner on it through a pulley if that's what your asking. I don't have any specific reason just a gut feeling that says lots could go bad. I'm probably reading into your question or misunderstanding it.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:Are you talking about being lowered down with the bag as opposed to rapping with the bag? I have always rapped with the bag, I would not lower the bag with partner on it through a pulley if that's what your asking. I don't have any specific reason just a gut feeling that says lots could go bad. I'm probably reading into your question or misunderstanding it.

I'm thinking perhaps he is talking about climbing in a team of 3.

I was at one point planning to do a wall with three (plans fell through), but we gave a lot of thought to this.

Leader leads, fixes lead line,

Leader pulls slack out of haul line (rigged through hauler). leader ties backup knot on slack side of hauler and clips it to anchor as backup. 3rd person attaches jumars to haul line, above bag. 2nd person lowers out 3rd person and bag. 3rd person jugs haul line. Then leader and 3rd haul.

Meanwhile, person 2 cleans anchor, jugs lead line and cleans.

Seemed like it would work pretty well. It seemed like the easiest way we could come up with to get 3 people up (other than maybe trailing a 3rd rope). Maybe someone with more experience can comment on the wisdom of it.

the only real issue I could see is that it would be hard to for the 3rd person to backup the jumars on the haul line (usually I put a gri-gri below the jumars as a backup and occasionally tie knots below that - can't due that due to the weight of the haul bag)...

I don't understand what the OP is talking about. I've usually heard te phrase "riding the pig" to mean rappelling with (while sitting on) the haul bag, so I don't know why he is talking about the pulley. As for jugging a haul line that has the weight of the bag on it, I don't think it sounds like a good idea since you'll not be able to tie backup knots. That may be acceptable to some. I have rapped on the haul line in the Trax when soloing, but I have tied a prussic below the teeth to take the weight as well as a backup knot behind the Trax.

If you're talking about hauling the bag with a person on it...are you high? I'm not hauling an extra 150 lbs when the person is perfectly capable of jugging, even if it take a little more time or rope shenanigans.

Since no one understands what the OP is talking about, I'll add something in. If you are going to bail, dump the water out before you start. I recall a team trying to man handle the crap out of a 200 lb pig with 12 gallons of water in it (among other things). Eventually one dude got so pissed off he started screaming and throwing a temper tantrum on the side of El Cap because he just couldent move the bag. I nearly died from laughter.

Don't dump the water, leave it on a ledge for the next thirsty party. But you are right, don't rap with it.

Russ,
I must of been typin at the same time;)

Russ,
in your method for 3 people, why does one person jug the haul line with the second lead line as a back up. rather than just jug the second lead line?

The guy cleaning the pitch doesn't get a backup rope, and the leader won't be able to start hauling until the guy is finished jugging the haul line, and the guy cleaning won't be able to release the bags until the other guy has finish jugging the haul line, and hence can't start cleaning.

Sorry if I have read that all wrong!

I believe the OP is referring to hauling a bag using your body weight as a counter weight. So you attach yourself to the haul line on the non-pig side and start walking down the wall as the pig raises. Once you get to the end of your safety loop you start jugging on the side of the haul line you are attached to.

As for whether or not this is safe, I dunno, but it works pretty well

You can easily back yourself up on a weighted haul line by using a mini traction on your gear loop. But it's not really all that fun, or safe to jug a weighted haul line. Better to jug the haul line( with mini-trax backup) then have the second lower the bag so leader and third can get to hauling quickly. The main advantage to this is that you can have the second keep up with the pig and free it if it gets stuck. If the pig is not that heavy (hahaha) the leader can continue leading while the second is cleaning and the third is hauling, belaying, and managing all the rope CF at the same time. But honestly if you are climbing in a party of three you are not really going for speed so better to team up on the manual labor.

Russ, thanks for clarifying.

To the OP: I think I have done what you are asking about. I assume you are talking about the leader fixing the haul line through the traction etc at the top of the pitch, then the third member of the party standing on the haul bag, clipping into the haul line with her jugs, then the second releasing the bags (and her) from the belay. She then jugs the weighted haul line, while the second cleans.

The only time I have done this is when having fixed and cleaned a pitch the night before. This will leave two ropes down the face (the lead line and the haul line). And unless the second wants to wait to release the bags until the leader has jugged the haul line, then someone is going to have to jug the haul line with the bags weighing the line.

It is very un-nerving. Especially if the pitch is not plumb vertical as you be lowering off into space. Because of the weight on the line, it make for super fast jugging. You won't have back up knots so use carabiners through the top of the jummars. If the line is cut, you die. Hence it might be best to use a robust static, not an old 9mm dynamic. If the rope runs over a lip then you might have difficulty getting your jummars over the lip.

Hope that helps.

Wow this got way more feedback than expected, and I thank all of you for chiming in. And yes, I was referring to a 3-man team, with the third jugging the haul line then hauling when we get to the anchor with the leader. I do understand not being able to tie back up knots.

None of what I was asking about has anything to do with bailing, just jugging the weighted haul line. I backed myself when I did it with a draw connected to a belay loop then to the haul line under my jumars, so that if for some strange reason my jumars get unclipped, I'll land on the bags and not deck.

And David, yes! That is what I'm referring to! I guess my real question is why would you not want to jug on a rigged pulley, backed up by fixing the slack side of the rope going through the pulley?

Russ thanks for the insight.

You are the man, Russ. Thank you all for your input! Knowledge is power!

Definitely listen to Russ, he knows his sh#t. Jugging a weighted haul line thats hanging directly on the hauling device is definitely a bad idea. The pulley is plenty strong but like Russ said the teeth on the hauling device is likely to damage/cut the rope if its shock loaded. On the Petzl website they write that the failure strength of the loaded pulley/ratchet on a pro tracion is 4 KN which isn't that much considering a loaded haul bag with a climber on the rope. If you did decide to do this I would definitely be backed up on another rope as was suggested above.

sounds scary to me