Thesis: it is unethical to climb on ANY wet rock

I suspect that there might be an inverse relationship between the amount of rain an area gets and the wet strength of exposed sandstone cliffs in that area. The NRG gets so much rain that exposed sandstone that becomes weak when wet won't last very long (in a geologic sense). Anything that is left has to be strong. In the desert southwest on the other hand weak sandstone can last much longer so proportionally more of the sandstone will be of the weaker variety.

Rigggs24 wrote:I’d be interested to see if there is actual research out on this. My guess would be no but seems like an interesting project - testing the strength of different types of sandstone while wet vs dry. I’m sure the results would vary greatly by formation. In addition, I would bet that there are several types of sandstone that do not become weaker in the time frame we are talking about - hours/days. I have climbed on sandstone at red rocks, red river gorge, Arkansas, southern Illinois, Moab, and Colorado. I also have a masters in geology and have worked as a geologist for 7 years. In my experience, the flatirons are among the most impermeable of all the sandstones I have been on. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t get weaker but it does mean that I’m not sure if some rain water would make it weaker during the time it takes to dry. And while I agree that mineralogy of the sandstone cement plays a large role as JCM has outlined, I think permeability plays an equal role. Many types of sandstone are highly permeable (red rocks, etc) and rain water will infiltrate the rocks matrix porosity (primary porosity) within minutes and make the rock easier to break. However, there are plenty of rocks (hard granite) that are so impermeable that they essentially have no matrix porosity and liquid would only permeate through these rocks at large time scales aka geologic time and through fractures/faults/vugs (secondary porosity). But its also important to state that a crack in the rock (fracture/fault) is not matrix porosity. Liquid in a crack is not necessarily inside the primary porosity of the rock. It is only for sure inside a break in the rock and may only be on the rocks surface. This does not necessarily take away from the point that a fracture/joint might become weaker but it could mean that within impermeable sandstone, a face hold or anywhere on the rock without a conduit for water does not become weaker in the short time frame of raining/drying. I’m not fully advocating climbing after it rains. I’m just thinking about the science of it and in my experience, the earth is nearly infinitely heterogeneous so I’m sure there are sandstone formations that are greatly affected by rain, others where it doesn’t matter at all, and all sorts of in between.

this is all a joke right? its rock. if it was supposed to be exactly the same forever it would be metal. wait no that erodes too. and such is life. approaches change, rocks change, routes change. I'm NOT saying you should maliciously go try and rip holds off. but its going to break down eventually, and the areas that are especially susceptible to the effects of water are already known by the climbing community, as made obvious by this thread. how about use common sense and don't get your panties in a bunch. is it reasonable to stay off the rock when its pouring? yeah, who climbs right after a downpour anyway? is it reasonable to say no one should climb if there's a 10% chance of rain? fuck no. that would mean huge amounts of the climbing community in the US would never get to climb outdoors.

and to the pretentious prick who said "my local crag" with the implication that its YOURS, unless you own the land its not your crag. its the community's crag. i don't care if you drilled every bolt, its still not your crag. you want to have your own crag? build it in you garage. we as a community care for the places we climb, and the gear we use and the people we climb with. and we as a community decide how to best care for each area.

/end rant

ECTradClimber wrote: There is significant evidence that water weakens rock. . . it's called erosion. There proof in science. IF there is even a 10% chance in rain don't go climbing outside. Especially if your at my local crag.

science

Interesting debate. I live, work, and climb on a metamorphic gneiss. Generically, this is next-to-granite bombproof stuff, but here on Crane Mountain, I'm working with syenitic gneiss, which turns out to be a very different beast. Not only does it take on water, become more friable, and tend to flake apart more when wet, but rain works remarkably deeply into the rock. I can see this by drilling test holes: the rock color is orangish for about 3/4", then turns gray-white. That zone, 3/4" deep, is the point where iron migration and oxidation have occurred.
One thing that doesn't come up much is the added risk of climbing wet rock. This is huge. Slip, fall, require evac, and you are directly responsible for a big environmental impact, not least of all on your own personal "environment". Rainfall loosens up and lubricates things; I once watched my belayer dodge the Farm by scant inches, when a mass of rocks fell out of Updraft at the Gunks, loosened by the previous day's rainstorm. This is the sort of thing that happens most frequently during/shortly after such storms. Long and short is, climbing during or directly after rainstorms heightens risk.
I see several comments that indicate the writer prioritizes personal experience to conservation. To be sure, I understand the feeling: plan, save, and travel on that Big Road Trip, only to find it rained yesterday? Who is going to give up a day for conservation's sake? I can't even honestly say I wouldn't ditch the ethics and tie in - but perhaps I should.
Is there a middle road? Maybe take a day to tour the culture while the rock dries? Maybe choose climbs that don't have small or fragile holds? I hope we as individuals make the right decisions.

I guess Ectradclimbers sarcasm has been lost on a few people. He says to not climb if there is any chance of rain or wind so that he can have the crags to himself, and he's taken seriously?

Well actually I suggested not climbing during wind.....because erosion.....and 'murica!. GO SCIENCE!

JCM wrote:Quartz won't even dissolve (much) in aqua regia, a mixture of hydrochloric and sulfuric acid that is used to extract gold from ores.

just to be absurdly pedantic: aqua regia is Hydrochloric and Nitric acids. and it's evil.

My water bottles have leaked all over the Flatirons. My karma is so screwed.

BDergay wrote: Okay.. now, in regards to COLORADO sandstone, moisture weakens it. PERIOD. How much it's weakened depends on the quality of the sandstone. As I said in the original tread ( mountainproject.com/v/third… ) Boulder sandstone is very strong. So some moisture *probably* doesn't hurt it too much. But on small flakes, delicate edges, one might want to exercise some caution. Anyone want to disagree with this assessment?

Yes Bob, I think you are mistaken. I don't think moisture has any significant effect on the strength of holds in Eldo or the Flatirons. If it did, I think it would be better known by now and would be mentioned in Steve Levin's Eldo guide or Jason Haas' Flatirons guide.

I raised the issue again in the is thread to elicit further opinions and frankly I haven't seen many that agreed with you.

I hear your a pretty decent guy. I still think it's ok to climb in certain areas if the rock's wet, but your probably right that a little extra care is called for.

And as for the OP being endangered by being encouraged to climb on wet rock, give me a break. Isn't he from back east? Those crags seep continuously :-)

So what if you are caught out in an unexpected rain storm???

Being from Texas, I have the answer!

Automatic Weapons!

First, shoot your belayer, then anyone else on the wall, then anyone else on the trails cause you know, trails erode in the rain!

Then finally just shoot yourself as you are evil and doing wrong!!!

See, guns are the answer!

No seriously, soft rock that is wet should not be climbed, hard rock, climb it if you too are hard.

We definitely need a competent geologist to assess each of our crags to see if they should be avoided when wet.

Certain types of sandstone are affected by water, other types of rock are not. Areas that are affected have experienced hold breakage after rain storms and the problem is known and documented in guidebooks. Most rock types can be and continually are climbed when wet. There would be virtually no alpine climbing otherwise, for example. Granite and quartzite do not break when wet.

There is also confusion in this thread about the use of "ethics." I would fully agree that climbing on vulnerable rock is unethical and constitutes giving the finger to the climbing community as a whole. And this includes doing so when on a vacation---putting a single individual or party's immediate desires ahead of the entire community of climbers is a hostile act against climbing. Take a nice hike in the rain or go do something in town if there is one nearby and stay off the rock, which belongs to everyone and not just you.

But the fact that wet rock can be dangerous in other ways, i.e. more susceptible to spontaneous rockfall events, is not an ethical issue in the same sense, it is an additional risk a climbing party undertakes if the climb during or relatively soon after heavy rains, especially in the spring. Risks of that sort are intrinsic to climbing and are and always have been the subject of individual judgements.

Okay.. this is retarded at this point (and I'm referring to engine timing, not developmental disabilities for the pc types).

First off, eliciting opinions doesn't prove nor alter physics... If that were the case we could just start a tread about lowering the pull of gravity... everyone could put their two cents in, and perhaps I'd then be able to progress beyond 5.7.. which would be nice since John Tex feels he has to constantly harass me about that for some reason......

But joking aside, from your last post Mark:

"I haven't seen many that agreed with you" is immediately followed by "but your probably right that a little extra care is called for".

So while you say that few agree with me, apparently you're one of them. Thank you.

So really all we disagree about is whether or not to tell tourists to disregard warnings about wet sandstone here in Colorado....

And at this point, congratulations! I give up, you win. I've always enjoyed sandbagging people, and while I think telling a tourist to disregard wet sandstone warnings goes a bit far... whatev's..... maybe we can get some free gear off a corpse packed into the talus one of these days....

But speaking of sandbagging..... John Tex, you really should tone it down. As you feel the need to continually berate that fact that I list 5.7 as my limit on my profile, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps I was just sandbagging that number?! Or are you just too in need of inflating your ego to even consider such a thing?

On the spectrum between being a sandbagger versus being a chest-thumping braggart douche: it's pretty easy to guess where you'd fall on that continuum...

Or, you could just stop acting like a fucking prick with your sophomoric bragging about soloing 5.4 slabs...

BDergay wrote:Okay.. this is retarded at this point (and I'm referring to engine timing, not developmental disabilities for the pc types). First off, eliciting opinions doesn't prove nor alter physics... If that were the case we could just start a tread about lowering the pull of gravity... everyone could put their two cents in, and perhaps I'd then be able to progress beyond 5.7.. which would be nice since John Tex feels he has to constantly harass me about that for some reason...... But joking aside, from your last post Mark: "I haven't seen many that agreed with you" is immediately followed by "but your probably right that a little extra care is called for". So while you say that few agree with me, apparently you're one of them. Thank you. So really all we disagree about is whether or not to tell tourists to disregard warnings about wet sandstone here in Colorado.... And at this point, congratulations! I give up, you win. I've always enjoyed sandbagging people, and while I think telling a tourist to disregard wet sandstone warnings goes a bit far... whatev's..... maybe we can get some free gear off a corpse packed into the talus one of these days.... But speaking of sandbagging..... John Tex, you really should tone it down. As you feel the need to continually berate that fact that I list 5.7 as my limit on my profile, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps I was just sandbagging that number?! Or are you just too in need of inflating your ego to even consider such a thing? On the spectrum between being a sandbagger versus being a chest-thumping braggart douche: it's pretty easy to guess where you'd fall on that continuum... Tell you what, since chest-thumping seems to be the only language you know, I'll play along in hopes that some of your awesomeness will rub off on me and maybe, just maybe I can get past that pesky 5.7 barrier.... So.. the last time I soloed epinephrine out in red rocks, I was really hung-over and dehydrated... I still did it in about 4 hours car-to-car.... Might a sick-bird such as yourself have any suggestions to tighten that time?? (I mean other than the obvious, 'take some water'). And I really, really enjoy bouldering out long routes in the black canyon... Since you're such a totes rad expert on climbing Colorado stone, I was wondering if you could share any beta regarding the rock there? I've always heard it was totally sketchy, with the peg and loose flakes and all, but it's never really bothered me... but I'm just a 5.7 climber, so what the fuck do I know?? Also.. I've accumulated (imho) a significant list of onsite free-solos I've done here in boulder and on longer routes up in RMNP... but I've still got a lot on my to-do list.. would you sit down with me sometime and help me figure out which ones would be most apropos for a dinky-ass 5.7 climber like myself? I guess what I'm really asking is, could you help me grow a pair?? Or, you could just stop acting like a fucking prick with your sophomoric bragging about soloing 5.4 slabs...

Lolz this guy.

So much anger. So much pathetic.

Since all observations since the history of rock climbing indicated no extra rock fracturing on Flatiron sandstone...what is it that you are basing you zealously held opinion on?

You berate the fact that all the evidence against is just "opinions" (observations actually), and state that "doesn't change physics." Yet you provided no actual proof of any physics that show that flatiron sandstone is weakened by water. Second...observations are observations of physics...so saying that it does change physics is obvious, but pointing out that observations represent the underlying physics is accurate.

If you are going to proclaim such a loud and raucous opinion, and belittle anyone that disagrees....at least provide some sort of proof.

Also, using capital letters does not equate to proof "Okay.. now, in regards to COLORADO sandstone, moisture weakens it. PERIOD" ha. Good point

Slippery rock can surely be a concern, but it isn't an ethical issue, it is a risk the climber chooses to undertake, unless of course they are caught out in the rain and have to climb wet rock.

A very large proportion of the ground-breaking ascents in Wales were done in damp, if not soaking wet conditions. Wet sections are not at all uncommon on cliffs in the Northeast and are just part of the game.

In some areas, the lichen on the rock becomes exceptionally slippery when wet. It is a good idea to know this because you won't want to be smearing on it. On the other hand, the adhesion qualities of bare wet rock are often not that bad at all.

Climbing on wet rock in an alpine environment is a given, but even in, say, Yosemite you can get caught in severe rain storms. If you climb in a place that doesn't have holds that break when wet, it is a good idea to purposely go out in the rain and learn about an environment you may have to function in, before you are forced to perform on it in stressful conditions.

Totally unsurprising - the biggest d-bag on this thread is from Eldo.

Totally surprising - someone hasn't tried to make this about the Gunks yet

Plus, what's BDergay's beef with science? Unlike lots of arguments, this has an objective answer that can be arrived at with data. And we've had a couple of geologists actually weigh in on the science, which should have ended it. Given the choice between a couple of geologists or the angry rantings of an Eldo Hardman, I'll take the former.

Evidently science isn't good enough for the EH. He must be an Oklahoma lawmaker in his spare time.

I just want to thank you all for the entertainment value in this thread. I laughed my ass off...

Austin Baird wrote:Plus, what's BDergay's beef with science? Unlike lots of arguments, this has an objective answer that can be arrived at with data. And we've had a couple of geologists actually weigh in on the science, which should have ended it.

Three geologists have added to the tread, one said he's not familiar with boulder sandstone, the second said it should be fine when wet, but later added that we should find a competent geologist to ascertain it.. perhaps he was kidding that time... and the third said 'probably not' but he didn't seem too sure... But other than these, all we've just got a lot of opinions. If there's a geologist who knows for sure, then please step forward- I'll be more than happy to defer to them.

But this whole thing started when the OP told a tourist to not worry about wet sandstone here in colorado... The vast majority of climbing I've done has been on sandstone that you def don't want to climb when/after it's wet....

And regardless if water effects boulder sandstone. Perhaps it doesn't, perhaps it does. My feeling is that you shouldn't tell tourists to disregard wet sandstone warnings in colorado for fear that they may assume that means all colorado sandstone..

Perhaps I'm wrong and our sandstone is the strongest thing in the known universe and we need not be worried at all.

bdboulder wrote: The vast majority of climbing I've done has been on sandstone that you def don't want to climb when/after it's wet.... so other than that we've just got a lot of opinions.

Uhhh... so? I would venture to say everyone commenting on this thread has climb tons of sandstone.

Other than what? What we have is ton of observation of the type of rock that makes up the flatirons and eldo, and all observations show it does not behave like soft desert sandstone.

bdboulder wrote: And regardless if water effects boulder sandstone. Perhaps it doesn't, perhaps it does. My feeling is that you shouldn't tell tourists to disregard wet sandstone warnings in colorado for fear that they may assume that means all colorado sandstone..

This is illogical. Some people are stupid, some people will climb desert sandstone when its wet. This doesn't change the fact that we have the right to point out the rock here is safe to climb when wet. Not pointing out facts because you are afraid someone will misinterpret them is silly.

So many people get hung up on the word sandstone. I realize Boulder's rock and desert sandstone fit into the same category geologically. This doesn't mean they have the same chemical make up or the same properties. Its like saying all birds eat mice because falcons do.... after all...they are all birds.

Dumbing things down to- "Don't climb anything labeled Sandstone when its wet!" because you are afraid some intelligent people can't tell a sparrow from an eagle is ridiculous.