small stoppers for free climbing?

caverryan wrote:Not sure how they would work in the Gunks (I've never climbed there), but you should check out CAMP Ball Nuts. Work amazing in Colorado granite, stronger the RP's (at least in the smaller sizes), quite secure, and often fit places an RP wouldn't. There is a bit of a learning curve for placing them, and they are more expensive, but I don't climb without them.

I've been climbing for a few years(Northeast)and never really "needed" them, at least for the routes I was climbing and this includes routes at the Gunks up through 5.10.

However now that I'm living in Colorado, I picked up the BD Micro Stoppers sizes #3, 4 and 5. I have used them quite bit, especially in Eldorado and even caught a nice little whipper on the #4 last weekend.

Jason

mattm wrote: Because of the low kN strengths, I'm a big fan of micro "nesting" when I can. Plug in two or more and equalize then go. The brits have this down to a science it seems.

Late the the conversation, but prob one of the best pieces of advice i have read on MP in general - lol.

Sergio P wrote:The Kn force on many RPs (regardless of material) is usually below what is recommended for lead climbing. Same way the C3 #000 is "not intended for lead climbing". With that said, I rarely leave the ground w/o them. I place them when nothing bigger will work. I would rather have something crappy then nothing. I have even taken a 10' fall on the smallest BD micro stopper and it held. When I use them (a common practice in Eldo) I try not to run it out above them. Instead, I place it and put in something more comforting as soon as the opportunity arises. If you are consistently running into situations where nothing else will fit then you should totally buy a set. I have a mix of the Metolius brass RPs and the BD micro stoppers. I like them both.

I agree. I've been in the middle of a thin runout and was glad to have my BD micros. I mostly climb moderate alpine, but I've still been in situations where having them is better than nothing. I usually have them for a thin small aid section. I'll step in them, but a big load I'd rather avoid. Again...better than nothing! Of course I carry a couple of copperheads and hooks too....but that's a different topic. Yeah....look into the BD micros 1-4....I love them.

Wild Country Superlight Rocks are fantastic, fit tons of places, 5kn strength (they're single cable)....nice complement for smaller conventionally shaped nuts....

Small stoppers are great to have, but just remember that they are tiny and can't withstand the abuse you might put a bigger nut through. This was a 5 kN DMM offset brassie (#2) - it wasn't a big fall by any measure, but it also wasn't the first. Damage can pile up.

No doubt this one was on me, but the hard-earned advice is to inspect frequently and think about retiring tiny gear if one does catch a fall.

broken brassie

Jaysen Henderson wrote:so latley ive been running into instances where i would like to have more smaller stoppers, currently i only have a 4-13 set of bd stoppers along with some boody but none the less a standard set. my question is for free climbing, is it necessary to have anything smaller than what i have (#4 bd stopper) i hear alot about Rp's and im not quite sure if thats what im in for? but i climb mostly in the Adirondacks and the gunks where gear can be finicky. also i dont know the differance between rp's and micro stoppers from say black diamond or dmm and ive alse herd of brassies? anyways id jsut like to be educated on the smaller passive pro thatd be great. i rock a set of c3's that im comfortable with up to the purple if that changes anything. thanks for any imput im jsut a bit confused on all the stuff out there and which is the most reasonable. im 16 with very limited cash, what i do get from my terrible job all goes into climbing and gas. thanks so much

I generally carry a set of BD microstoppers (steel) and DMM Brass offsets. Depending on whether the rock is really hard or really soft, I might leave one set behind...

People at Arapiles were whipping on RPs for decades before most of the rest of the world knew what they were.

cjdrover wrote:Small stoppers are great to have, but just remember that they are tiny and can't withstand the abuse you might put a bigger nut through. This was a 5 kN DMM offset brassie (#2) - it wasn't a big fall by any measure, but it also wasn't the first. Damage can pile up. No doubt this one was on me, but the hard-earned advice is to inspect frequently and think about retiring tiny gear if one does catch a fall.

Scary picture! Hope you weren't hurt. My gallows humor about tiny pieces is that they'll slow me down as they break or pull. That said, I put one 15' zinger on a #4 RP some years ago and it held perfectly.

As to inspection: yup, after every climb. If they're tweaked or misshapen, or have sprouted a broken wire-end that stabs me in the finger, they're immediately consigned to the dog-anchor pile.

What are people climbing to need RPs and micros?

I have DMM peanuts. I used to place them until I realized I can look around or just move up an inch or two and get a better placement. I haven't placed them in a while (years).

I'm not saying they are not useful, but what are some routes where you can't get by without micros?

My understanding is that the smallest 3 sizes of wires won't hold or may not hold leader falls

Dmm peenuts work great for me in our flaring granite.

The original poster has had quite the few years since this post and I dont think he needs any more small nut advice. I have read some of his trip reports on a few of his El Cap climbs including a great trip on The Shield. I know on the pitches up to the Shield I really needed small nuts on the Crystal Chimney pitch, small brass off sets and cam hooks were key.

Josh Olson wrote: That trick has saved my bacon more than once. I like to carry a sling with three biners set up as a magic ex to save time in those situations.

++1 Brilliant!

Old Sag wrote:What are some routes where you can't get by without micros?

Offhand, there's Todd Skinner on Hollow Men (5.12c), Devil's Tower Photo by Beth Wald at Devils Tower, and To RP or not to be at Eldorado.

Old Sag wrote:What are people climbing to need RPs and micros?

Comedy in Three Acts at the Gunks, for one:

mountainproject.com/v/comed…

The crux is protected by a single micro in a shallow flare that doesn't look like it will hold (thankfully I didn't fall), but I've been told that it does.

-Alex

djh860 wrote:My understanding is that the smallest 3 sizes of wires won't hold or may not hold leader falls

All depends on the fall, the placement and the brand of nuts. But small lead falls with a dynamic belay have quite low forces. As I've said earlier I've seen falls taken on very small RPs. Absolutely they can hold, thats what they are made for

Old Sag wrote:What are people climbing to need RPs and micros? I have DMM peanuts. I used to place them until I realized I can look around or just move up an inch or two and get a better placement. I haven't placed them in a while (years). I'm not saying they are not useful, but what are some routes where you can't get by without micros?

Rock varies all over the world. The grade matters less than the rock and the location. There are 5.7 and 5.8s on the Watchtower Faces (Arapiles) which need RPs and small gear to avoid very long runouts.

I also own a Wild Country Zero #1, I don't use it often but when do I am normally VERY grateful I own it. It is only rated for 4.5kN so a big fall could break. But for a minor fall in strong rock it is solid.



One 5.10b on the aforementioned wall has a 10m of tough moves above a ledge to the first bomber gear of a 0.3 Camalot. But with RPs and micro cams there you can make it less terrifying.

Don't forget in calculating fall factor/force, the amount of rope out! I dread to place my smaller rp's, WC Zero's, smallest peanut, etc (i use them all) with less than 30+ feet of rope out. Nothing more terrifying than a 4kn piece off the belay. Which is why on some routes i carry a screamer. And +1 to there are all sorts of grades which take micros. First pitch of 'Better w/Bacon at Lover's Leap in Tahoe takes only smaller rp's/peanuts. The whole pitch. It's only 5.6, basically a slab with aid rated protection.
They can also be used to direct a rope out of the lip of the roof crack we all so dread. Often will find a micro seam/pocket into which i can place a 'directional'. Might not be my pro, but keeps my rope where i want it. My whole rack of small gear, 2 Zero's, 6 rp's, peanuts, weighs less than a BD.5. That's 13 pieces!
To answer the OP, i like my DMM brassies, peanuts, zero's and RP's, in that order. Use them all.

coppolillo wrote:Wild Country Superlight Rocks are fantastic, fit tons of places, 5kn strength (they're single cable)....nice complement for smaller conventionally shaped nuts....

+1

patto wrote:People at Arapiles were whipping on RPs for decades before most of the rest of the world knew what they were.

Well , i don't know about decades. but i go them around 1980 and still see nothing better for tiny pro.

No, you can't fall on a #1,, but you can grab it and lower off ! #2 and higher hold falls..4&5 are bomber

DMM Peenuts are awesome. They've become my most frequent pieces in those sizes. I also carry BD Stoppers down to #1. For a while I carried brass offsets, but just didn't reach for them that often; they've moved to the aid rack, though if I'm targeting something in particular I'd be glad to have them. Likewise the small squarish nuts (I had IMPs) didn't come up that often.

I wouldn't want to count on the thinnest wires in a hard fall; but in practice they're often interspersed with better gear, to hopefully limit the fall distance but they're not life-critical. And it's realistic to hope that they'll hold a short fall -- a majority of my lead falls involve gear above me or no lower than my feet. Typical forces are only a few kN. The quality of the rock, and the fit of the nut to rock, matter a lot; but with a good fit in good rock, even a small wire will hold modest falls no problem.

Bottom line, don't run it out in a death-or-serious-injury scenario above a small wire, even if it's well-placed. But there are lots of scenarios where having a small nut is better than not having a small nut, and they weigh almost nothing.