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Bolts for Limestone How Long?

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Jim Titt wrote: Sure, the $4 would cover the cost of the metal but not the tooling, process costs and all the rest. About $15 would be a commercially interesting retail price if the market was large enough, a 316 bolt costs about $3.
Right. I should have emphasized that. A $4 COST, not retail price. And my friend was assuming the use of the manufacturing infrastructure he used every day.

Jim Titt wrote:A mid-sized climbing equipment manufacturer would want to see a market of 10,000 units to make it worth the hassle of starting up which clearly none of us see as reasonable at the moment.
Jim, you make me smile. "Man will never fly." "No one wants Stoppers, they want pitons!" "Sticky rubber is cheating." Orville and Wilbur did okay. So did Yvon. And Fire. So will Martin.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Yep, raw material cost is a long way from manufacturing cost and distinctly far away from retail.

Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
Jim Titt wrote: A mid-sized climbing equipment manufacturer would want to see a market of 10,000 units to make it worth the hassle of starting up which clearly none of us see as reasonable at the moment.
While I agree with this, since the numbers I see would require 10s of thousands of units just to recoup the start up cost. If a climbing company were to build a small scale molten oxide electrolysis smelter, they could make more titanium and alloys than they could shake a stick at. That combined with cast titanium would make it very reasonable over the long term, but at a higher initial investment. There would be almost zero waste, since recycling is putting it back in the MOE bath. Super strong 2 lobe cams? I could dig it.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

" A mid-sized climbing equipment manufacturer would want to see a market of 10,000 units to make it worth the hassle of starting up which clearly none of us see as reasonable at the moment." was not speculative, it was based on the requirements of an equipment manufacturer who previously made stainless steel bolts to re-start production. They wanted an initial order of 10,000 bolts.

I have developed and certified titanium bolts in case Martin ceases to produce them or the demand becomes higher than he can cope with but need to recoup ca $3,000 for development above the normal commercial profit margin. The import costs for titanium are such that a large initial order is required to make the investment worthwhile.
As the titanium users have over the years shown they are quite capable of sourcing titanium bolts themselves at cost or less there is no incentive for a manufacturer to bring onto the market a competing product at a nescessarily higher price.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Jim, Eliot, et al,

You both have good practical approaches to production.

My crusade is that climbers need to change their mindset from stainless steel to titanium, which is just the next step in the evolution of fixed protection. We've come a long way from 1/4" Star-Dryves and Leeper hangers, let's keep our momentum.

Since we now know that stainless steel bolts need replacing every few decades, (some places more, some less) it makes complete sense to put in bolts that are truly permanent, and be done.

What I hope to accomplish here on MP is to catalyze the rate of change, because it's good for the sport and for our non-renewable resource. Once the volumes of Ti bolts reaches a certain point, Market forces will take over, so it's up to us to do the right thing and buy the right product.

Right now there's only one supplier of Ti climbing bolts. I don't expect that will always be the case.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Eliot Augusto wrote: While I agree with this, since the numbers I see would require 10s of thousands of units just to recoup the start up cost. If a climbing company were to build a small scale molten oxide electrolysis smelter, they could make more titanium and alloys than they could shake a stick at. That combined with cast titanium would make it very reasonable over the long term, but at a higher initial investment. There would be almost zero waste, since recycling is putting it back in the MOE bath. Super strong 2 lobe cams? I could dig it.
Eliot,

The ability to produce investment cast Ti parts exists in the Boulder-Denver area, specializing in low-volume, high profit, specialty parts. If you are curious/serious about sub-contracting them to produce Ti climbing bolts or other gear, let me know and I can put you in touch with my friend.

I can't say whether or not they would be interested, since there's a multitude of business factors to address, but the possibility is there...
SS Minox · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 5

Are the Petzl glue ampules the only ones available? A tube is just a waste for me since I may only set one titan bolt at a time. We only need one or two at the top of the cliff on our island. I want to make sure my little buddy Gilligan is safe when he climbs up there to signal the Navy for help. Sometimes I wonder if we'll ever get off this island, but in the meantime we want to have fun and be safe climbing the cliffs. Can you help us?

Nate Mathy · · El Chorro, Andalucia, ES · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 0

Does anyone have experience or knowledge of bolting into calcium deposits such as a tufa or a stalactite using Fixe 6 1/2'' glue in bolts and Hilti Glue 

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Nate Mathy wrote:

Does anyone have experience or knowledge of bolting into calcium deposits such as a tufa or a stalactite using Fixe 6 1/2'' glue in bolts and Hilti Glue 

Personally, I would never use stainless steel in any location that has tufas and stalactites.    Where is this wall?

I put up a route, Boom!, that has several bolts in tufas, although I put the bolts in the main wall whenever possible.  

I used 80mm Titanium bolts and Hilti RE-500.   I selected large diameter (>8") tufas that were well attached to the main wall and tapped each placement to determine the hardness.  On Cayman Brac the tufas/stalactites come in hard/solid ("ting" when tapped) and soft/breakable ("thudd").  

Even hard tufas sometimes are just hard on the outside; a hard layer covers soft, "sawdusty" inner rock which is where water continues to flow as the tufa/stalactite grows.   These would never be solid with an expansion bolt, but the RE-500 makes a strong placement.   Be gentle when you brush out the hole.  Too aggressive and the hole will just continue to get larger.    

Oh, I wouldn't recommend recessing (troughing) the bolt in this case.   The bigger the hole in the hard layer, the weaker the placement (I think), will be.  Just drill a round hole, brush, blow and glue.

 I've never put a bolt in a stalactite, not even the top "shield".  Too scary.   Even the stalactite on Carpe Stalactite (bigger around than I am and twice as tall) which you climb on does not have a bolt in it.   The bolts are in the main wall.  

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

I don't know about small lots, but we have a lot of titanium foundries here in Oregon and the PNW...

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

It certainly would be nice to find alternative sources for titanium bolts. While the cost has come down, it absolutely is not cheap. Anchors are still upwards of $85 each and it can easily top $200 - $300 just to develop one sport climb. That's more than five times what it cost using other materials. It would be nice to be able to get them somewhere in the USA from a non-profit prospective for rebolting efforts. I spoke with the Access Fund about this awhile back and they were interested in the idea of a nationwide buy-in for bolts, but of course there is a long path between idea and implemented.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
20 kN wrote:

It certainly would be nice to find alternative sources for titanium bolts. While the cost has come down, it absolutely is not cheap. Anchors are still upwards of $85 each and it can easily top $200 - $300 just to develop one sport climb. That's more than five times what it cost using other materials. It would be nice to be able to get them somewhere in the USA from a non-profit prospective for rebolting efforts. I spoke with the Access Fund about this awhile back and they were interested in the idea of a nationwide buy-in for bolts, but of course there is a long path between idea and implemented.

Just FYI, I just have two Tortugas, angled inward slightly, for anchors at the top of routes.  Easy to thread and lower.   I've even threaded and top-roped beginners.    Two years ago I tried to measure the wear on the bolts with a micrometer and I couldn't.   Couldn't get a reading that was different than the nominal diameter of the stock and this was on a 15-year-old anchor that sees quite a bit of use.  So less than .001".

You can see the wear patch, it's glassy looking, and feel it, very smooth, but you couldn't measure it.    Now granted, the Brac doesn't see much traffic but one would certainly expect to be able to measure wear if the anchor were stainless (beach sand on the rope).    That is, if it didn't break off in a few years ;-)

So my anchors cost about $19.   If someone would run some side-by-side tests for wear of 316 vs. Ti grade 2, that would be useful.  The only test available, ASTM G??, does NOT seem to corrolate with what we're seeing in practice.   20kN, I have some "extra" Tortugas...

Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

Mighty expensive titanium glue bolts is the only way to go.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
John Byrnes wrote:

Just FYI, I just have two Tortugas, angled inward slightly, for anchors at the top of routes.  Easy to thread and lower.   I've even threaded and top-roped beginners.    Two years ago I tried to measure the wear on the bolts with a micrometer and I couldn't.   Couldn't get a reading that was different than the nominal diameter of the stock and this was on a 15-year-old anchor that sees quite a bit of use.  So less than .001".

You can see the wear patch, it's glassy looking, and feel it, very smooth, but you couldn't measure it.    Now granted, the Brac doesn't see much traffic but one would certainly expect to be able to measure wear if the anchor were stainless (beach sand on the rope).    That is, if it didn't break off in a few years ;-)

So my anchors cost about $19.   If someone would run some side-by-side tests for wear of 316 vs. Ti grade 2, that would be useful.  The only test available, ASTM G??, does NOT seem to corrolate with what we're seeing in practice.   20kN, I have some "extra" Tortugas...

I've been trying to find out how hard grade 2 Ti is compared to 304 and 7075-T6 but it doesent seem quite as straightforward task as one would expect. I've seen quotes ranging from Titanium is softer than aluminum to it's twice as hard as 304 stainless. Anyone know for sure?

Anyway, the anchor point needs to meet to a single point or else it's going to twist the rope to hell. The Fixe ring/ anchor combos used for anchors are notorious for twisting ropes into infinity and I hate them with a passion (well, more the person who installed them). Admittedly, I've never lowered off two titanium bolts directly, but I've lowered off two bolts made from plenty of other materials and they always, always twist the rope.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

I´m on holiday for 10 days so you´ll have to do your own research for a while   

Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

20KN I guess there no solution about the twisting, but I know for sure that Titanium is the way to go on sea places.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

20kN, I really don't know why the Ti anchors do not twist the rope, but they don't.  

Jim, I agree that the G65 test shows Ti softer (faster wear) than 316.  But in practice, I've seen that Ti wears exceptionally well compared to stainless.  This is why I think a new test needs to be used.  Instead of sand/rubber wheel, perhaps sand and a loaded rope.   

Anyway, I'm happy with my anchors, they won't need replacing in my lifetime.  I'll let you youngsters worry about it.

Martin Roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 95
20 kN wrote:

It certainly would be nice to find alternative sources for titanium bolts. While the cost has come down, it absolutely is not cheap. Anchors are still upwards of $85 each and it can easily top $200 - $300 just to develop one sport climb. That's more than five times what it cost using other materials. It would be nice to be able to get them somewhere in the USA from a non-profit prospective for rebolting efforts. I spoke with the Access Fund about this awhile back and they were interested in the idea of a nationwide buy-in for bolts, but of course there is a long path between idea and implemented.

The normal price for a single All Titanium Anchor Set from Titan Climbing is currently £57.39 which is $75 according to google today.
That gets you two Eterna bolts, 2 screw links (one long, one short) and a way over engineered anchor ring. If that beefy ring ever does wear out then its only likely to be the ring that needs to be replaced at a current cost of £11.39 (about $15).
These are full prices for just one item and we can offer up to 30% discount on those prices depending upon volume and repeat business etc.

Some money can be saved if Titanium U bolts are used on the Anchor Sets.
Two Ram's Horns on two U bolts costs £36.82 (about $48) before any discount.

Martin Roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 95
20 kN wrote:

I've been trying to find out how hard grade 2 Ti is compared to 304 and 7075-T6 but it doesent seem quite as straightforward task as one would expect. I've seen quotes ranging from Titanium is softer than aluminum to it's twice as hard as 304 stainless. Anyone know for sure?

Anyway, the anchor point needs to meet to a single point or else it's going to twist the rope to hell. The Fixe ring/ anchor combos used for anchors are notorious for twisting ropes into infinity and I hate them with a passion (well, more the person who installed them). Admittedly, I've never lowered off two titanium bolts directly, but I've lowered off two bolts made from plenty of other materials and they always, always twist the rope.

In my experience ropes get badly twisted by anchors that have two rings as in the one in your photo even when they are threaded correctly. My thoughts are that the rings pull towards each other when loaded and as they do so they turn to something like 45 degrees. So each ring twists the rope slightly.

Two points that sit flat on the wall and remain perpendicular to the rock don't twist the rope. Ram's Horns don't seem to twist the rope because the two horns are held at the same angle by the ends of the horns sitting flat on the rock. They will swing towards each other but won't twist...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QKKx69xN7M

Regarding hardness of different materials and metals - It really is difficult to predict when just looking at hardness as Jim mentions below. If you take a metal file to a block of metal (aluminium alloys, stainless, mild steel or Titanium for that matter) and a block of rubber then the metal will lose material faster than the rubber.
 I don't think that the ASTM G65 is of much relevance to our typical use either.

I know that I've seen significant wear on aluminium alloy biners, plated steel and stainless steel anchors but I've not seen any on Titanium. Granted, Titanium has not been in use for as long but nobody I know of is aware of any wear on Titanium anchors.
Titanium galls and smears more than common grades of stainless when abraded against itself but as for abrasion from a dirty or clean rope, theres simply no data that I know of.
If anybody does know of any measurable wear on Titanium then it would definitely be interesting to hear about and try to quantify.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Martin Roberts wrote:

Two points that sit flat on the wall and remain perpendicular to the rock don't twist the rope. Ram's Horns don't seem to twist the rope because the two horns are held at the same angle by the ends of the horns sitting flat on the rock. They will swing towards each other but won't twist...

I'm thinking two Tortugas, angled sligthly towards each other, provide the same thing in the sense that the rings are equal and stable.  

BTW: Martin, nice video, especially the rusted ugliness left by the replaced steel anchors ;-)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
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