"It's gone free at ___."

Highlander wrote: Greg, Where I live is neither young nor hip, you must be thinking of somewhere else. The majority of the local climbers around here are retirement age or even older and still get after it. BTW I consider myself a very average climber not an elitist.

I'm not surprised to hear the climbing standard of Ouray locals is high.
I am kind of surprised they found it easy to get to 5.12-5.14.
Maybe they just made it look easy.

Mark,

I think you may need some help with reading comprehension. I was simply stating that is not uncommon to see non-professional climbers climbing in the 5.12-5.14 range. 5.12 is a very attainable grade for lots of climbers if they put in the work. You can show up at many climbing area across the country and see multitudes of climbers able to climb or project 5.12.

Highlander wrote: You can show up at many climbing area across the country and see multitudes of climbers able to climb or project 5.12.

I don't think we really disagree about much.

Do you realy think there are multitudes climbing 5.12 at many climbing areas around the country? I've been in the bubble for years now and don't really have a perspective. Unless you climb 5.12 around here, you're considered just a hiker, but I find it hard to believe that there are a lot of 12s being done regularly at the Gunks or Devil's Lake or Cathedral or JTree or a bunch of other areas. The Red, yes, ORG, yes, Yosemite, maybe, although I'll bet a lot more 10s get done there than 12s.

Regardless, it is much easier now to train up to 12 and above, which is a great thing I think.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I don't think we really disagree about much. Do you realy think there are multitudes climbing 5.12 at many climbing areas around the country? I've been in the bubble for years now and don't really have a perspective. Unless you climb 5.12 around here, you're considered just a hiker, but I find it hard to believe that there are a lot of 12s being done regularly at the Gunks or Devil's Lake or Cathedral or JTree or a bunch of other areas. The Red, yes, ORG, yes, Yosemite, maybe, although I'll bet a lot more 10s get done there than 12s. Regardless, it is much easier now to train up to 12 and above, which is a great thing I think.

Then we agree. Sure it's easier to attain those grades at a sport climbing area or somewhere like Indian Creek or Red Rock, rather then somewhere like J-tree.

There are a shitload of people at the Gunks that can climb 5.12. Just not Gunks 5.12. The V7s-9s get done all the time ;)

Bob Dobalina wrote: If a nail-up goes clean, you should no longer place pitons on it.

So it's not a free route if one person does the route free, but it is a clean route if one person does it clean? That does not make sense to me. There are a number of routes on El Cap that have been done clean, skipping hard moves with runout hooking and such, but the route is still listed with an A designation and not a C, and 99.9% of people still nail on it.

I think we have to consider how many people do it clean vs nailing. If we have a route that has gone clean over and over by many parties (e.g. the Nose, Lurking Fear, Moonlight Buttress, ect) then yea, it's clean. But if one dude does it clean and then next 30 nail on it, it's not a clean route yet.

Clean routes are the transformation of nailing. As a route gets nailed, holes are created making the route progressively easier as a nailer, and then eventually it turns into a clean route. That's how almost all aid routes on El Cap go down. Even the Nose used to be A4 and now it's C2+. Imagine of the first four pitches on the Nose were still A4. The thing would never get climbed.

20 kN wrote:Even the Nose used to be A4 and now it's C2+. Imagine of the first four pitches on the Nose were still A4. The thing would never get climbed.

A4 in 1957 was a far different thing than A4 in 2015.

I just want access to information. I can't free climb more than 5.11 because I have a damaged finger. What's wrong with you people? My god, that was depressing. Are you guys like this to people in your own life?

Patrick Kehoe wrote:I just want access to information. I can't free climb more than 5.11 because I have a damaged finger. What's wrong with you people? My god, that was depressing. Are you guys like this to people in your own life?

LOL

What do you mean you people?!

Patrick Kehoe wrote:I just want access to information. I can't free climb more than 5.11 because I have a damaged finger. What's wrong with you people? My god, that was depressing. Are you guys like this to people in your own life?

You can surely still find a century old book describing crossing the country on a model T. How useful would that be to you today. You want a description of pounding wooden wedges into a #1 C4 crack?

Patrick Kehoe wrote:I just want access to information. I can't free climb more than 5.11 because I have a damaged finger. What's wrong with you people? My god, that was depressing. Are you guys like this to people in your own life?

Is your finger as damaged as Tommy Caldwell's finger?

20 kN wrote: So it's not a free route if one person does the route free, but it is a clean route if one person does it clean? That does not make sense to me. There are a number of routes on El Cap that have been done clean, skipping hard moves with runout hooking and such, but the route is still listed with an A designation and not a C, and 99.9% of people still nail on it. I think we have to consider how many people do it clean vs nailing. If we have a route that has gone clean over and over by many parties (e.g. the Nose, Lurking Fear, Moonlight Buttress, ect) then yea, it's clean. But if one dude does it clean and then next 30 nail on it, it's not a clean route yet. Clean routes are the transformation of nailing. As a route gets nailed, holes are created making the route progressively easier as a nailer, and then eventually it turns into a clean route. That's how almost all aid routes on El Cap go down. Even the Nose used to be A4 and now it's C2+. Imagine of the first four pitches on the Nose were still A4. The thing would never get climbed.

I thought it was a free route now at 5.14 a/b? People still aid this?

Patrick Kehoe wrote:I just want access to information. I can't free climb more than 5.11 because I have a damaged finger. What's wrong with you people? My god, that was depressing. Are you guys like this to people in your own life?

What is the problem? The info is available - certainly for routes that get both free and aid ascents - and nothing is stopping you from aiding something that has gone free (with certain exceptions). Even something that is now commonly done as a free route can still be aided, although if not done clean would be ethically wrong. The Nose is 5.9 C2 or 5.14b, but most parties try to free up to 11 and only aid the harder stuff just for efficiency. What good is the 1975 pin rack and nailing rating today?

Thanks Marc. People seem to assume I'm climbing in Yosemite or the Black Canyon. No, I'm in Fort Collins, CO, where info about local climbs does get lost. Definitely should have said something about that. Maybe I'm lamenting the decline of aiding, while at the same time seeing tons of non-climbers in my life who see it for the first time (not big wall) and say "oh my god I want to do that!" Meanwhile, REI doesn't even sell daisy chains anymore because basically everyone used them to tie into anchors. I want to get more people into climbing and not everyone can climb 5.12-5.14, though that was good for a laugh.

Got to find the old guides, and the new ones: The new ones tell the current condition of the route (maybe) and where the modern belay bolts are, the old guides give an idea of the aid grading.

Look on Amazon, on eBay.

the 1975 A rating can roughly be translated into a C rating. It might help Patrick pick his routes, it might not. I would think a route that's seen moderate traffic would have lost some choss, and the placements would average better than original, so would maybe drop a notch in difficulty. Add modern clean gear, and they might drop again. That assumes a crack to take the gear. Runout face done on hooks will still be sporty.

christopher adams wrote: I thought it was a free route now at 5.14 a/b? People still aid this?

CHECK
MATE

Jon Frisby wrote:There are a shitload of people at the Gunks that can climb 5.12. Just not Gunks 5.12. The V7s-9s get done all the time ;)

The question is how many of them can climb 5.9+...

Why on earth do you want to get more people into climbing? The crags are already too busy as it is. If someone wants to get into climbing, great, but no reason to go out of your way to make the sport any more popular than it already is.

Aid climbing at cragging areas is not something to be encouraged. It is fine if someone wants to practice for a bigger objective, but aid climbing for the sake of aid climbing is stupid and pointless. Go climb towers or walls if you want to aid climb.

Andrew Gram wrote:Why on earth do you want to get more people into climbing? The crags are already too busy as it is. If someone wants to get into climbing, great, but no reason to go out of your way to make the sport any more popular than it already is. Aid climbing at cragging areas is not something to be encouraged. It is fine if someone wants to practice for a bigger objective, but aid climbing for the sake of aid climbing is stupid and pointless. Go climb towers or walls if you want to aid climb.

C'mon now, it's ALL stupid and pointless!

Andrew Gram wrote:Why on earth do you want to get more people into climbing? The crags are already too busy as it is. If someone wants to get into climbing, great, but no reason to go out of your way to make the sport any more popular than it already is.

agreed 110%.