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Broken Cam thread

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
teece303 wrote:I do think X4s *might* be more fragile than other pieces of similar size, but we can sadly learn so little from anecdotes like this, because we don't know what happened and we never will.
The two-axle/offset axle design of the X4s makes them inherently less robust. In small cam sizes my favourite are Master Cams. Metolius have a reputation for burliness and I believe Master Cams reflect this.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Dow Williams wrote:...many if not most trad leaders are simply not extending their trad pieces adequately
Pretty spot on and this is another point on which the bear and I agree - you're building a bottom-to-top rope system and that system needs to be designed so it displays two primary attributes: a) minimal rope drag and b) pieces aren't moving in their placements. And in the case of that latter attribute, it means pieces don't move in their placements while you are climbing / climbing past them and they don't get jacked all over the place in a fall.

Another cause of this issue I'm seeing more and more of is people not being cognizant of or caring about the stem orientation of cam placements. If the stem is pointing anywhere near perpendicular to the rope path then you can pretty much be assured you cam is going to get jacked up as it attempts to rotate down in the direction it's being loaded.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

I extend 75% of my placements. My focus is generally on rope drag, rarely on concern about jerking around my placements. But the effect is mostly the same. If you rope is travelling in a straight line then there is little rope drag and little forces on your gear as you climb.

But it does depend on the climb. If the climb simply follows a vertical crack then the need to extend pieces is vastly reduced.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

So one if my partners have a few x4s thats have never been fallen on or hangdogged ... And he noticed for some reason his green had a bent stem near the thumb loop

I didnt think it would affect anything honestly ... But then he gave it to me and said "pull da trigger"

The thing just ben and collapsed whenever i tried to pull the trigger normally ... Now i could get the trigger to slide down the stem eventually if i paid CAREFUL attention and got the pull "just right" ... But for us mortal folks who just pull normally the stem flooped before the cam could retract

We tried straightening out the wire and it still did the same thing

Stem collapses when pulled

Stem collapses both ways

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXbLZcpY0TI

;)

Patrick Heddins · · Chattanooga, TN · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 105

Check this one out.

.5 x4
The cam was stuck at an angle perpendicular to the face when it was fallen on. A seemingly moderate fall.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Patrick Heddins wrote:Check this one out. The cam was stuck at an angle perpendicular to the face when it was fallen on. A seemingly moderate fall.
Bad placements can wreck cams. You can't really blame the X4 for that. Mind you a MasterCam with a shorter solid neck, solid cams lobes and a stronger single axle might have survived a bit better.
Jeremy Riesberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 5

Failing to places cams in the direction of fall will result in a greater chance of bending, linking, or breaking of your gear. My 2 x4's have both caught me and look fine. I will fall on them again.

Also to the leader who ripped three pieces while dogging a route at the creek, falling on those small cams can cause the softer rock to break and/or will open up your placements. The climb, Fingers in A Lightsocket comes to my mind. Lots of blown out spots where small cams broke the surrounding sandstone. I could see where the lobs scratched out lines as the ripped from the wall.

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

If you want safety and security stick to top roping.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Kevin Mokracek wrote:If you want safety and security stick to top roping.
That is a bit silly. Most of us do want safety and security. We don't need to stick to top roping.
BigB · · Red Rock, NV · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 340

Man this thread has my head spinning. I'm not sure what to think of the x4s now.
I was all set to buy the x4s up to .75 for my second set of cams. Now I'm not sure if I should just stick with the c4s down to .3 and only use the x4 .1-.2 to finish the small end.... watcha all think?

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

Trust your gut. I'm inclined to continue to trust BD. I own X-4s, and have no problem with what I have (middle three). Looking to diversify, I'll be doubling up with Master Cams. I'm still a little skeptical of the 'new' Aliens, but might go for some of the old style, perhaps for the offsets. That is me. Gear hoard in training.

Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

99% of "gear failure" is user error, primarily, improper or poor placement and/or directional attachment. Worrying that a Black Diamond or Metolius cam is going to break or mal-function from its intended use and cause injury or death is sort of like living every day in fear that a terrorist might end your life. Sure there are folks who live their life that way, many work for Fox News.... but climbing is probably not the best activity for same. Cam preference is a whole other matter that has nothing to do with safety.

Kevin Heinrich · · AMGA Rock Guide · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 286
Busted .2 X4 (5ft fall, undercammed placement in flaring crack)

Busted this guy a few days ago.

It is a brand new cam, placed a few times, never fallen on until then. I got a few X4's as my first set of small cams and therefore don't have a ton of experience placing them. It was undercammed (you can kinda tell from where the wear is on the lobes) and it was in a slightly flaring crack. The direction of pull was as correct as could be. I fell about 5 feet from above and to the right of it. It started to catch me momentarily and then ripped.

I think it's easy to blame the gear for these types of things but I will be first to admit that I am not great at placing small cams. Instead of walking away from this thinking X4's are terrible, I am gonna go practice placing small gear because the error is my own (OK maybe X4's could be a bit more durable...)

Thought I would add my $.02 to the discussion.
Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Really happy you made it out ok, how far was your next piece?

Yup, I find it best to overcam if you're between two sizes, or use a C3 which overlap the smaller X4 sizes.
Offset X4s are pretty nice to have also for flaring cracks, pin scars, irregular cracks.

Kevin Heinrich · · AMGA Rock Guide · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 286

Next piece was ~10ft. A bomber #3. Fall was super clean and belayer was attentive so no worries.

Thanks for the tip. I will definitely be messing around with my small stuff on the ground to build some more understanding of just how much they need to be cammed.

cjdrover · · Watertown, MA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 355

I talked to someone else at the crag that day, and if you fell from the crux (the undercling traverse), grey and yellow aliens or the equivalent protect that section very well. The crack is quite irregular, with some good placements and some really bad ones.

ChrisN · · Morro Bay, CA · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 25

Glad you're ok... do you think this may have been an umbrella type failure due to undercamming?

I'm wondering if the X4s are more fragile than the Mastercam small cams or is this thread just bringing people out of the woodwork?

And Mastercams are generally $15 cheaper...

Kevin Heinrich · · AMGA Rock Guide · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 286
cjdrover wrote:I talked to someone else at the crag that day, and if you fell from the crux (the undercling traverse), grey and yellow aliens or the equivalent protect that section very well. The crack is quite irregular, with some good placements and some really bad ones.
Yeah fell at the crux. Damn it is so fun. Thanks for the beta.

To Chris NH:

Looks like a busted umbrella so I'd say yes. I couldn't comment on their relative durability though as these are my first small cams.
Aaron Hope · · San Luis Obispo · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 341
Chris NH wrote: I'm wondering if the X4s are more fragile than the Mastercam small cams or is this thread just bringing people out of the woodwork?
I was thinking the same thing...why haven't we seen similar threads about the master cams or C3s breaking if all these X4 failures are just user error?
mike h · · Front Range, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 24
aaron hope wrote: ...why haven't we seen similar threads about the master cams or C3s breaking if all these X4 failures are just user error?
+1. This seems to be a much more frequent problem with the BD X4's than other small cams.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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