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inverted harness leg loops

Original Post
Matt Westlake · · Durham, NC · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 662

So a friend of mine managed to do something interesting with harness leg loops recently:

While putting it on, somehow the leg loops got flipped around in such a way that although it looked mostly normal, but the keeper strap was the part going through the belay loop and the hard point was on the bottom.

Said climber TR'ed something in this configuration and cleaned the route via rappel. About 2/3rds of the way down the rappel the keeper popped and suddenly the only thing doing any work was the swami hard point. After a bit of excitement with a high beltline my friend made it safely to the ground. At first we thought somehow the harness had broken but eventually pieced together what happened.

At home I've discovered just how easy it is with many models of harness to recreate this situation. More or less just disconnect the leg loop elastic keepers, pull one leg through the belay loop, and reconnect the leg keepers. Try it.

My own current model, an skinny Arc'teryx, has legs keepers that you'd have to rethread and a really big difference between the thickness of the hard point and the keeper so it'd be quite difficult to make this mistake. However, my older model, I think it's a BD Momentum?, has easy-release clips for the leg keepers and the leg hard point and keeper are closer in size. I hadn't really thought about this as a potential problem but it sort of reminds me of the "open sling" thing you can do with rubber bands and trad draws.

Anyone run across this before? I'm sure it must pop up every now and then. If nothing else, take a look at your own gear and be aware of the potential surprise. I don't, but I know some folks seem to prefer taking apart their leg loops rather than stepping into them and I could easily imagine someone "fixing" their twisted harness after pulling it out of the bag and creating this configuration.

I'm sure the bottom line message is just: Climbing is dangerous, Pay attention or YER GONNA DIEEE!!@@!# but that aside it's not something I've had on the list of things to be wary of.

Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

Happens all the time. You just need to roll them and you're good. It's not like the keepers take any weight. The leg loops are attached to the belay loop and that's the connection takes the weight. So as long as you tied in thru top and bottom or rappel using the belay loop you're not in any danger if the keeper gets disconnected or breaks.

Matt Westlake · · Durham, NC · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 662

I think you are missing my point here - yes it's easy to fix but it presents a problem if it goes unnoticed. I'm wondering if it has been connected to any accidents.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Matt Westlake wrote: At home I've discovered just how easy it is with many models of harness to recreate this situation. More or less just disconnect the leg loop elastic keepers, pull one leg through the belay loop, and reconnect the leg keepers.
I think you guys are not seeing Matt's issue. His friend disconnected the elastic leg risers, then pulled a leg loop THROUGH the belay loop, then reconnected the risers to the (now) upside down leg loops, which were connected to the belay loop only via the (usually) non-weight bearing keeper strap.

Never heard of an accident caused by this scenario, but must admit I don't follow ANAM very closely.

Don't see this becoming a widespread danger, but maybe you need to keep a closer eye on your friend.
Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

Maybe a picture would help. I don't know how you could put on your leg loops without putting on your leg loops.

Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25
powhound84 wrote: I would like to see a picture where the leg loops were removed from the belay loop then I want to meet the clown who actually tried to climb in the harness.
I figured out what he's talking about now. I was thinking the elastic on the back. He means this piece. Shove a leg loop through the belay loop and it's upside down with the weight on sewn capture piece. Yeah, that's a bad thing to do.

Don't Do that.
Jason Halladay · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 15,153
Matt Westlake wrote:At home I've discovered just how easy it is with many models of harness to recreate this situation. More or less just disconnect the leg loop elastic keepers, pull one leg through the belay loop, and reconnect the leg keepers.
That really doesn't sound too easy to me. It's a bit of work to do all that so I'm guessing this is really uncommon. FWIW, I haven't heard of it happening before.
When I teach new climbers to put on their harness, I suggest to not unclip the leg loops "drop seat" clips to put the harness on or take it off. This avoids weird twisting issues or confusion. If the legs loops are never unclipped, you can always untwist the harness without unclipping anything and thus avoiding doing something weird like passing a leg loop through the belay loop.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120

Ahh, the days of climbing in a swami belt.

Leg loops were a welcome development but they are not essential to keep you off the ground. Just a Hellofa lot more comfortable.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

My first reaction - shame on the climber for not putting the harness on properly.

Second reaction - if he really did that convoluted F-U that the OP suggests, he went WAY out of his way to foul things up. Shame on him X2.

Advice to him and anyone else who thinks this could be an issue - if your harness is aligned properly, DON'T TAKE IT APART. If it looks cocked up, turn it over, rotate a leg loop, or pull the whole thing inside out, but don't do stupid things like passing leg loops through tight passages or disassemble the various connections. Learn how to put it on properly, and have your partner glance at it to ensure that things are where they should be (upper hard point outside the waist belt, lower HP above the keeper, rear elastics coming off the top of the leg loops, buckles on leg loops outside the bridge, etc)

Rob Baumgartner · · Niwot · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 196

Good post. Harness errors are the often the easiest to miss. Teaching climbing to beginners for several years (often using gym harnesses that have been put back twisted up in every conceivable fashion) has reinforced how important a buddy-check can be. It's true that most harness errors (upside-down, twisted leg or belay loop, belay loop behind the waist belt, etc.) probably aren't dangerous, but so what? You may as well take the time to point it out and fix it before they get on the wall.

When I check my climber, "rope is threaded correctly through both hard points" follows "harness snug, buckles doubled back" and precedes "five flat pairs, sufficient tail" on the knot. This at least ensures that this issue doesn't go unnoticed.

Matt Westlake · · Durham, NC · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 662

I think you guys are getting the idea here. If the leg loops go you are facing a surprise fall where your swami belt slides up your chest and catches under your armpits which could be scary and painful if not downright dangerous.

I've been climbing for about 8 or 9 years and hadn't run into this before so it took me by surprise. My friend is a competent climber and I think this is something that could be easy to do particularly since so many harnesses have hard points and keepers that are the same color and aren't incredibly different in thickness. It really depends on the harness design but when in the incorrect position in many cases the legs look fine and even are right way up. As for scenarios, consider if the routine for putting on a harness differs just a bit from normal. For example, someone could choose to undo leg buckles if the ground is wet/there isn't somewhere to sit and they don't want to hop around on one leg while putting on each leg loop.

My point is to get folks to take a look at their harness and see if they are vulnerable to this and be aware of the possibility AND to see if any stories of this causing trouble are floating around.

It also makes me wonder how many folks actually use the feature (removable leg loops). Don't a lot of people just use a different harness for alpine climbing versus well, all other forms of climbing? Or is there another common scenario where this is helpful?

Matt Westlake · · Durham, NC · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 662

Another friend of mine did a nice write-up (with illustrations!) of the event and issue here:

humanfactorsblog.org/2015/0…

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300

While I think it’s nice to bring this to people’s attention, I don’t think it’s a huge safety risk. I agree with most people here, it’s not an “easy” mistake to make. Even if someone likes to put on their harness by totally undo then redo their leg loops (I've done that when I'm wearing crampons or large boots), getting your leg loops on the wrong leg will only twist your belay loop (and the elastic keeper cords), but the leg loops will still be connected by the strong tie-in point. The only way to get the keeper loop rotated in the way you describe would be pulling one leg loop through the belay loop, which is quite a bit smaller than the leg loop. I’m not going to say it’s impossible to do by accident, but really improbable. And even if someone do manage to do that (like your friend did), unless they wear their waist belt very loose (and they shouldn’t wear it very loose), it’s unlikely their harness will get pulled up to their arm pit.

From a risk management perspective, both the likelihood and consequence of the event is pretty low, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Jack C · · Green River, UT · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 325

I was about to post on a similar topic:

A friend of mine somehow broke his keeper loop and then supposedly he flipped upside down. I don't really see how this would happen and just said he probably tied in underneath the keeper loop and when he fell it broke. It is important to note, however, that of course he "didn't tie in wrong." I'm skeptical.

Anyways, that same situation happened to one of my harnesses when I lent it out to a friend. Am I good to climb in it without the leg-keeper loop? Is there an increased chance I'll flip over like my friend said he did?

Just don't want to have to buy a new harness because I'm missing 3 inches of non-weight bearing fabric.

Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

i say you'd be fine as long as the hard point is in the tie-in loop since your legs aren't going to pass through the tie-in loop after it's tied.

Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

and i'm going to go with your assessment that he did indeed tie in below the keeper and that's why it broke, and that probably had nothing to do with him flipping over. If you look at the harness without the belay loop since it's not holding anything when you're tied in, all you're really doing is tying the top waist and the legs of the harness together at those two points, there's really no reason that would cause a flip over. Unless you're top heavy maybe.

Personally when I tie in I double pass through the hardpoints. Bottom to top then go back and bottom to top again then to my figure 8. I find this pulls the two points together at the start so there's not as much shifting when weighted and keeps the family jewels from getting crushed.

Jack C · · Green River, UT · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 325

Thanks for the info Eric. I figured as much but it made a lot more sense when you explained it.

Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

The main issue is that harness makers mostly make rope locators that are not full strength. My friend recently broke his Edelrid harness on a very steep route. The locator uses a plastic buckle, and he had rotated to his one side in a fully horizontal position, putting the rope and force across the buckle and it snapped. As far as I know only Metolius has high strength (9KN) rope locators. Buckles or backpack style 1" webbing is WEAK sauce.

David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
Jon Rhoderick wrote:The main issue is that harness makers mostly make rope locators that are not full strength. My friend recently broke his Edelrid harness on a very steep route. The locator uses a plastic buckle, and he had rotated to his one side in a fully horizontal position, putting the rope and force across the buckle and it snapped. As far as I know only Metolius has high strength (9KN) rope locators. Buckles or backpack style 1" webbing is WEAK sauce.
They're not supposed to be a weight-bearing part of the harness. The rope is supposed to follow the same path as the belay loop -- that is, it is supposed to be around the actual, structural, weight-bearing parts of the harness at the top and bottom. If the rope is tied around the rope locator, rather than the harness strong point, this is a bad tie-in. Don't do that. Just like you shouldn't forget to tie-in, or shouldn't forget to finish your tie-in.
Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

It is still possible to load the locator with a proper tie in. In certain rare positions with one leg really high and the other low or flagging, the rope contacts the rope locator and not the full strength tie in.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Jon Rhoderick wrote:It is still possible to load the locator with a proper tie in. In certain rare positions with one leg really high and the other low or flagging, the rope contacts the rope locator and not the full strength tie in.
I am having a hard time picturing this. A really, really hard time.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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