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The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166

First of all put me down for a +1 on this - great words Al.

al grahn wrote:Andreis, you really squeezed a pimple here, didn't you? I've been climbing at the Lake for about 35 years. So I guess I'm an "old geezer". I don't see this as a conflict between the "Geezers" and the "Young Guns". Climbing is multidimensional. If you've only climbed in the gym and at sport crags, you've only explored one dimension. There is, and should be, room in the wide world of climbing for practitioners of all the styles and dimensions of the sport we all love, from high altitude mountaineering to alpine climbing, to hard crag climbing with gear only, to aid climbing, etc. Thankfully, I meet and talk to young climbers who are interested in all of these other aspects of the sport. For many climbers learning to set top rope anchors is the first step toward exploring the wider world off climbing. It's safe to say that no one would go to an area that has been developed as a sport crag and start pulling bolts. The bolt wars were hashed out in the nineties. Likewise, not every climb and every crag needs to be safe for democracy. Many people of all ages and levels of experience crave the sense of adventure and satisfaction that comes from mastering the skills necessary to do routes that require much more than the power and gymnastic ability to pull hard moves. I think all of us who consider ourselves traditionalists respect sport climbing as a fun and valid style of climbing. So, Andreis, I think you owe the same respect to the many people of all ages who stand behind the established Devils Lake ethic. In the words of my good friend Tommy "back down chumpster!" As has been pointed out, it is moot anyway.
Second here's another good one from this past weekend:

Umm...
Tom Lausch · · Madison WI · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 170

I dont even know what is going on in that last one. I don't even see the edge of the cliff. God forbid one of those blows. The extension on that would be scary.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Tom Lausch wrote:I dont even know what is going on in that last one. I don't even see the edge of the cliff. God forbid one of those blows. The extension on that would be scary.
Or sole the biner that is cross-loaded over an edge fails, or any part of the cord fails. If either of those non-redundancies goes, then the whole thing fails - catastrophically. When confronted with some suggestions about how to improve the setup, the owner of all that shiny new gear insisted that my partner and I didn't know what we were talking about, and that he (in his vast experience) was certain the anchor was bomber.
Tom Lausch · · Madison WI · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 170
James M Schroeder wrote: Or sole the biner that is cross-loaded over an edge fails, or any part of the cord fails. If either of those non-redundancies goes, then the whole thing fails - catastrophically. When confronted with some suggestions about how to improve the setup, the owner of all that shiny new gear insisted that my partner and I didn't know what we were talking about, and that he (in his vast experience) was certain the anchor was bomber.
Just tell him you wont be carrying him down the stairs when it does blow.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

There is some scary stuff out there!

Dylan,

What in the world? I don't even... can't understand... where to start!

Is the ice cube tray there to protect the rope from abrasion, maybe?

There appears to be all kinds of wrong going on in those photos. The only thing I noticed that looked solid was that the figure eight knot was correctly tied. Where the eight is positioned and everything that follows looks horrible.

Did you set this up just to take a picture and post this? No, couldn't be, for it is too intricately assembled to be the case.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Dylan,

I think that falls into the same something category. That looks like that anchor will fail. Am I too understand that nothing is a single line and if anything in the loop blows its game over? What about that biner in 2nd & 3rd to last pic? Was that steel? That thing is just waiting to be ripped apart, then the eight on a bight flys around and that's it...

The tragedy is going to be when this person gets the unknowing first time climber killed instead of themselves.

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

Chris,
I talked with a ranger, it was a hiker....he said "a climber fell" when I asked him for details. I asked what wall? And if he was roped in. " I don't know the walls, but he didn't have any ropes or anything". I go, oh, so he was hiking. "No, he must have been bouldering around, he was a boulder".

This ranger obviously doesn't know climbing, which is ok, but he also said that in all his time of 2 years at the park and the 8 years of his other ranger buddy, no actual climber (with climbing gear) has had an accident.

The hiker in question should be ok, at least the way the ranger I spoke with made it sound.

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

Dylan, you beat me too it. I took the same pics! Freeking wacky TRs out there this weekend.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

I was at Devils Lake last year and ran into some guys climbing off an anchor that kind of shocked me. It was a climbing rope wrapped around a tree about 10 times. The tree was bomber. He told me the friction of all the wraps makes it totally safe. How do you all feel about that? He said it's a pretty common trick in some other discipline (like rappelling or canyoneering or something... I can't remember what...). I think he finished off the loose end by tying a knot into a carabiner to help prevent the loose end from coming undone. I told him if the carabiner gets weighted it would be unsafe, but he said with all the friction it should never get weighted, it's just there for piece of mind.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

That's called a tensionless friction hitch, you can google it for lots of examples. 10 wraps is probably overkill actually, and you do need to secure the end, but yes it's bomber as long as the tree is healthy and solid and sufficiently large.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Dylan, thanks for bumping this, I somehow missed the exchange last October.

I really like the "sprained ankle" image, btw, it works on so many levels. I'll be borrowing that line!

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Wow, so their punishment for keeping that State Park off limits to climbing for 20-30 years is that there was no community of climbers looking out for the place when they finally reopened it.

cfuttner · · Chicago, IL · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 5

I moved in the other direction from Durham to Chicago. I would hardly call DL "pristine" with the paved sidewalk that runs along the top. And while I was not much of a fan of Pilot, it's not exactly the "shitshow" you make it out to be. Go to Moores if you don't like the anchors. There's better climbing there anyway.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

I took Dylan's original point about Pilot to be that even when people install bolted anchors in an area that has easy top access (i.e. where they use the anchors without being required to climb to them) you see numerous obviously poor anchors.

This is relevant to the assertion made a couple of years ago (near the top of this thread!) that bolted TR anchors would make things safer.

Beyond that, I'm really just making conversation with a friend who has moved to a place I once lived and remember fondly.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

"That ottah werk, and if it don't, well, we'll jus' tell mom to start over with makin' a new kid."

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Dylan B. wrote: Y'know, you're right. I should have said something instead of just fixing it. It wasn't entirely clear which party at the base was responsible for the rope, so I just fixed it instead of shouting down. It's an interesting question, though. Would you feel the same way if all I had done was lock an unlocked biner? I mean, I would never have moved a cam or re-equalized a cordalette or anything like that without talking to them. But at the moment, this seemed entirely appropriate. Where's the line?
The line is in touching someone else's safety system without their consent or knowledge.
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166

Dylan,

To be clear...I think it's a safe bet that you improved the safety of the system in question, but you definitely crossed a line. I, for one, don't want people (no matter how experienced or skilled they might be) thinking it is ever okay to alter a system in any way without consent or knowledge. This is largely because I don't want inexperienced climbers who don't understand a particular system or setup thinking that it is okay to just change something they perceive to be incorrect without asking (and your actions here give them that license, or at least start to i.e. "I read about Dylan doing this on an MP forum so it must be ok."). I have seen many instances of less experienced climbers thinking something needed to be fixed when it did not, and worse yet the proposed fix was inferior to the original. We can go back and forth all day on varying slippery slopes, but absolute standards of conduct are better in life and death situations...even if it's just locking an unlocked biner, you should still alert the owner. In the situation we're discussing you should have yelled something like:

"Yo! Who does this American Death Triangle belong to, and do you want me to fix it?"

Or at least:

"I am fixing this ADT, you're welcome punters."

Or even:

"If one of you morons wants to learn how not to die, come up here and I'll show you."

All of these statements are less of a crag foul in my opinion than just changing it.

If you get no response, then you shrug your shoulders and move on down the line. Altering without permission or at the very least informing the other folks is a huge faux pas in my opinion.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

I agree with James & Chris. I trust *your* judgement, Dylan, but a random person walking up ... I've had random people "fix" anchors for me before (notably people who prefer a 5 point anchor to a 3 point anchor, which should already tell you something), and it is really startling to realize you have been climbing on an anchor other than the one you thought you were on.

I'd give you locking someone's unlocked biner - the intent there is usually pretty clear.

chris tregge · · Madison WI · Joined May 2007 · Points: 11,036

I am particularly fond of this one:

"If one of you morons wants to learn how not to die, come up here and I'll show you."

Haha!

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Chris treggE wrote:I am particularly fond of this one: "If one of you morons wants to learn how not to die, come up here and I'll show you." Haha!
I'm glad you approve! :-)

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