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Crampons on Pete's Farewell

Original Post
Mark A.S. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0

So spring has finally sprung in the Adirondacks and its been great to get some early season climbing on some of the high and dry cliffs. This always includes a few tours around Pitchoff chimney cliff for me and this year I noticed quite a bit of crampon scratches and scars on Pete's Farewell. They were most apparent on the second pitch traverse and corner.

A winter ascent of Pete's is a great adventure and a "fun" change up from ice-climbing. However, Pete's is also one of the classics in the region and it was disconcerting and disappointing to see the rock getting chewed up. Furthermore, I've never seen any real ice build-up on that pitch or most of the climb for that matter, with the exception of the first pitch. On this type of terrain, mountain boots would work fine, if not better than crampons, which could be held in reserve for any real mixed terrain.

If you're looking for a true alpine or traditional mixed climbing experience in Cascade pass, I would recommend heading across the lake to Cascade cliff. Here there are any number of grungy ice and rock lines in the winter where you can scratch, claw, pound pins and hack away. While I certainly understand that at times there is overlap between ice and rock climbs, Pete's is not one of those cases.

Mark Scott

MaxSuffering · · KVNY · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 0

Saw the same thing and agree 100%.

I've also seen crampon scratches on Jewels and Gems wall and on P1 of Tilmans Arete as well. Not cool. The Tilmans problem is especially annoying because it's almost assuredly done on toperope after climbing the ice to the left. If you're looking for mixed climbing there's plenty of it nearby, no reason to scratch up classic rock pitches.

This is a conversation we're all going to have to have eventually as climbing here becomes ever more popular but if you're looking at a popular rock pitch with NO ICE on it, don't climb it with ice gear!

Unfortunately I've talked to one prominent local guide who's response was "they're 'climbing routes' and I'm 'climbing' them," with an air of self-righteousness. I've also talked to well known ice climbers who's attitude is any pitch is fair game to climb in crampons, so this probably isn't going away.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Total bullshit INMOP. Mixed climbing is fun when it makes sense but on completly dry rock that is an established rock climb its downright rude. In fact on any good quality rock that has no ice, putting up a mixed FA is weak sauce INMOP. real climbers ( read sport weinies) :) climb that shit mid winter in rock shoes and bare hands. Heck Chris Smith climbs barefoot all year. guides that teach people that this is how to behave are seriously lacking in common sense and morals.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
MaxSuffering wrote: Unfortunately I've talked to one prominent local guide who's response was "they're 'climbing routes' and I'm 'climbing' them," with an air of self-righteousness. I've also talked to well known ice climbers who's attitude is any pitch is fair game to climb in crampons, so this probably isn't going away.
Technically they're right, even if me and you (and a bunch of others) disagree. This is the current state of climbing, many conflicting uses of the same walls. Will only get worse before getting better. [And I've seen worse already too]
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

I'm surprised to hear that any locals are cool with crampons on rock routes. I've witnessed the opposite. Especially Petes. I've seen parties with rock shoes on there when it was in the 20s but sunny!

Jewels and Gems? Well that seems silly. Climbing Tilman's in the winter on the other hand can be an all ice ascent. I've climbed it without using the ice on the left. That was years ago, a year where there was a 2 foot wide ribbon of ice to climb. That does suck if one can skip leading, I mean soloing to the top. Why do people do dumb shit but skip Dogleg? Dogleg always empty and there's a tree to climb over. Lots of fun!

BigB · · Red Rock, NV · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 340

Get off "my" rock! YOUR type of climbing isn't climbing it's scratching the rock... even though I leave chalk marks, bolts, hangers, scratch marks from cams and anything else on the wall that my community deems cool.
Seriously folks not trolling here... But does this go back to the DB thread?!? It's not "our" rock... if another human wants to climb something in a different style, then they have just as much right to do so as us. We certainly could be "called out" just as well.....food for thought!
Also for the record I am not a ice climber/never even tried it.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Bryan Manning wrote:Get off "my" rock! YOUR type of climbing isn't climbing it's scratching the rock... even though I leave chalk marks, bolts, hangers, scratch marks from cams and anything else on the wall that my community deems cool. Seriously folks not trolling here... But does this go back to the DB thread?!? It's not "our" rock... if another human wants to climb something in a different style, then they have just as much right to do so as us. We certainly could be "called out" just as well.....food for thought! Also for the record I am not a ice climber/never even tried it.
But what fun is mountain project without self-righteous idignation?
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Bryan Manning wrote:Get off "my" rock! YOUR type of climbing isn't climbing it's scratching the rock... even though I leave chalk marks, bolts, hangers, scratch marks from cams and anything else on the wall that my community deems cool. Seriously folks not trolling here... But does this go back to the DB thread?!? It's not "our" rock... if another human wants to climb something in a different style, then they have just as much right to do so as us. We certainly could be "called out" just as well.....food for thought! Also for the record I am not a ice climber/never even tried it.
Hammered aid isn't accepted on most free climbs. Dry tooling is pretty similar.
Community opinion provides the power to influence behavior.
The identity of guides who think it's OK to dry tool Pete's should be publicized and let climbers decide how much they want to continue supporting those individuals.
Maybe the ADK community is fine with scratches, I don't know.
Seems like we might find out.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616

I watched someone climb a popular route at a popular crag using only pitons. Yes, you read that right. This was two years ago. Apparently that's okay at some crags where over bolting and FA controversy has already undermined the standards and ethics for that geographic area. Unfortunately climbers get bored and start roving around, and apply their ethics to other places assuming it's that way everywhere. Each one teach one. Disclaimer: the student also needs to be willing. It doesn't sound like the guide referenced above is open.

I haven't been back to that area since. It's like going to a restaurant and getting bad service time after time, you eventually just have to stop going.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Mark E Dixon wrote: The identity of guides who think it's OK to dry tool Pete's should be publicized and let climbers decide how much they want to continue supporting those individuals.
Sounds good in principle, except the folks who would care (e.g. the ones in this thread) are probably not typical of guided clients. Newbies OTOH probably don't know crampon scratches from pigeon shit.

HOWEVER, if the guide in question is part of a larger organization (like R&R), a word to their boss about this might have some corrective effect. This is probably not the case, as ADK guiding seems to be heavy on the "lone wolf" scale of guide services.
Mark A.S. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
Stagg54 wrote: But what fun is mountain project without self-righteous idignation?
I tried very hard to avoid any tone of self-righteous indignation and debated for awhile even making a post about this topic. Truthfully, I don't feel very right, just concerned. I think the grey areas of climbing are great and I enjoy debating things like bolt placement, good style, tactics, etc as long as humor and humility are part of the conversation.

To be clear, I am a local guide. I live in Keene Valley and have been in the adirondacks for most of my life, so maybe I feel some sense of propriety. Also, I love mixed climbing and all the scratching and destruction that can accompany it. However, bringing those tactics to a classic rock climb, that is only a rock climb and has no hint of being a true mixed climb is very different. The first pitch of neurosis and home rule/the natural would be a better representation of terrain like this.

I think it was Bryan Manning who equated bolts and scratches from cams with the effects of climbing rock in crampons. This isn't a very direct comparison, especially when considering that there aren't any bolts on Pete's. Also, I've placed quite a few cams and never made a scratch that resembles what crampons do.

My big concern here, is that this stuff will proliferate and the marring of classic climbs will expand. Climbing is, or was, anarchy, but not so much anymore. While that attitude still persists to some extent in the Adirondacks, I hope that common sense and civility will win out.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Mark A.S. wrote: I tried very hard to avoid any tone of self-righteous indignation and debated for awhile even making a post about this topic. Truthfully, I don't feel very right, just concerned. I think the grey areas of climbing are great and I enjoy debating things like bolt placement, good style, tactics, etc as long as humor and humility are part of the conversation. To be clear, I am a local guide. I live in Keene Valley and have been in the adirondacks for most of my life, so maybe I feel some sense of propriety. Also, I love mixed climbing and all the scratching and destruction that can accompany it. However, bringing those tactics to a classic rock climb, that is only a rock climb and has no hint of being a true mixed climb is very different. The first pitch of neurosis and home rule/the natural would be a better representation of terrain like this. I think it was Bryan Manning who equated bolts and scratches from cams with the effects of climbing rock in crampons. This isn't a very direct comparison, especially when considering that there aren't any bolts on Pete's. Also, I've placed quite a few cams and never made a scratch that resembles what crampons do. My big concern here, is that this stuff will proliferate and the marring of classic climbs will expand. Climbing is, or was, anarchy, but not so much anymore. While that attitude still persists to some extent in the Adirondacks, I hope that common sense and civility will win out.
Don't read into to the negative that much. Your concerns are valid and it's good to have a conversation about dry tooling rock routes. Everybody knows that's lame even if they wanna talk shit on MP.

Remember taking two guys up CPS last August and that ended in the worst Thunderstorm ever? Some big fat guy asking if he was good enough to lead? I'm the fat guy and I led every pitch two weeks later! Good to hear you're still guiding and living in KV!
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

The only place cams scratch rock is in the desert. never seen a significant cam scratch in the north east. I have seen pleanty of crampon scratches. A real concern is breaking or rounding out a small crucial hold that dramaticly changes the grade of a rock climb. that can easily be done with forged steel crampons and tools.

If you want to argue about bolts. Put this one in your pipe and smoke it.
Dry tooling a pure rock climb is just as lame a bolting a crack climb.

I love dry tooling but the climb needs to have enough ice on it to merit the use of tools or be in a real mountain location @ altitude where it is not practicle to remove crampons.

Some of my favorite climbs have significant dry tooling on them. Fafnir, Ragnarock and Repentance come to mind... all done before Dry tooling supposedly existed;) Funny how often the new generation thinks they invented something new.....

Me scratching up P2 of Ragnarock in typical condition. something new and hard that friends of mine were working on in nh this winter

Matt Ritter on NH project.

MaxSuffering · · KVNY · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 0

@Bill Kirby: When has Tilman's Arete iced up to be an all ice ascent? I've never seen the Parallel Gully ice over to the crack on the first pitch variation or anywhere near the upper arete where the rock route climbs in over twenty years of climbing here. That would be a BIG ice year.

@Brian Manning: You should read up on the difference between "style" and "ethics." Since you're not an ice climber you probably have no idea what repeated ascents of rock in crampons does in terms of damage, and thus what all the fuss is about. Chalk washes away. Bolts have an impact but are only placed once, not repeatedly, and are an entirely different argument. Crampons scratches vs. cam damage... really? You say you're not trolling, but I'm not convinced.

@Everybody Else: For the record the guide in question did not specifically mention dry-tooling Pete's Farewell, only that he doesn't believe there are any ethical issues with dry-tooling rock routes in general. To my knowledge he has never taught clients or new climbers that dry-tooling Pete's or any other rock route is okay. I'm certainly not going to name him on the internet because he is a friend, and overall a really good guy.

I DO get a level of self-righteous indignation over this because frankly climbing classic rock routes with no ice on them in crampons is fucking stupid. Seriously, somebody disagree with that statement and present a rational argument otherwise. The Adirondacks have no shortage of excellent mixed routes, and plenty of garbage rock you can scratch up until your hearts content, why somebody would climb one of the most popular moderates in the park this way confounds me. There will always be a grey area concerning rock pitches which do ice up to some extent or provide logical access to a significant amount of ice above (Partition and Brrright Star come to mind) but if there is no ice it's my opinion that it's a rock climbing route only.

If I took my ice gear and climbed High Exposure would anybody agree that's cool? I doubt it.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Max, Climbing Tilman's ice was five or six years ago? It was in December, during a ridiculous cold snap, when temps were -20 in the morning for about a week. It was one of those now you see now you don't so you better get it kinda things.

I'm not saying drytooling rock routes are cool. I'm just saying I've climbed Tilman's in the winter with crampons and it was legit. I would comfortably wager that Petes and Jewels and Gems will never have any ice no matter what year this is or how low the temperature is.

MaxSuffering · · KVNY · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 0

^I guess I'll take your word for it. It seems like the arete pitch really sheds water and it would indeed be a very, very rare occurrence that it would hold enough to ice up, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Will Roth · · Saranac Lake, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 55

I agree with the original post! Crampon use on non iced up, classic rock climbs is just silly. Besides the other cliffs MaxSuffering listed with recent scars, there are also crampon scars all over King Phillip Spring Wall. This problem is something new this year. At least I've not seen it in the past. With the exception of Pete's, and Tillmans to an extent, all of these cliffs or climbs are easily top rope accessible. This leads me to believe that the people responsible are new to the sport and looking for experience. Most likely the people responsible will not read this thread or even realize what they are doing is frowned upon. I just hope that enough people realize that this practice is poor form and will speak up if witnessed.

Gree nezo · · Western Mass · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 350

hate to say it but this is the future of climbing in the north east and every where else. Climbing rock in winter is as old as climbing itself (can the two even be separated?). i'll happily stick my neck out and stand up for the ethic that if its winter its fair game, "established" summer rock route or not. who is to say that their "style" of climbing is more pure than someone else's or whatever? can any of us really play that game and be "right"? No way. HOWEVER there is some serious common sense that should come in to play. Can you (or me?) climb a route without pedaling feet and popping tools all over the place, scratching the rock with crampons and leaving a trail of scars? No? Certainly this is a good time to head to an ice route or put a tr on some crappy rock that no one cares about and work on technique. Maybe a good time to ask yourself why you want to climb Tillmans or Petes in winter, consider what you're up against and the consequences for your community by your actions. Personal responsibility, community and common sense.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

And I will repete myself. drytooling a pure rock climb is as lame as bolting a crack climb.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

WG is right next to the black dike and fafnir etc. it is dry as a bone. anyone i ever knew who climbed it in winter stepped up to the challange and climbed it in good style with mountain boots and no tools. scratching the piss out of a rock climb that has no or little ice on it is not cool. just because it is winter does not give you the right to wreck stuff.

Gree nezo · · Western Mass · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 350

Simply stating that something is lame or "wrong" is not a compelling argument, at all...ever...sorry. Look at history. Give solid reasons, ones that actually make sense. No one here is advocating open season on destroying rock. If we can maintain an open but critical approach and in doing so encourage others to a sense of personal responsibility, a common sense mindset and consideration of how individual actions affect the larger community only then might there actually be a basis for changing how and when routes get climbed. Maybe. Worth a try.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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