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Broken Cam thread

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Aric Datesman wrote: Actually, all sorts of numbers are publicly available if you know where to look. Case in point, I'm rather surprised to see that BD only makes 20-25% of their products; the rest are 3rd party manufactured.
I am not, that's pretty common to many manufacturers. Even their C4 cams are only partly made by them. Bally Ribbon Mills makes their webbing, they buy their steel cable on spools from cable manufacturers, I doubt they make the plastic on the product (e.g. trigger and cable coating). They are just the final assembler for a lot of their product. Case in point, Rock Exotica makes a lot of products for a number of other companies. They make a number of Petzl's carabiners. Then of course some of Rock Exotica's products arnt made by them (e.g. the Enforcer). It's pretty funny, one manufacturer makes another's products, and that manufacturer has a different manufacturer making their own products.
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
20 kN wrote: I am not, that's pretty common to many manufacturers.
True. But not all manufacturers tout the "Made in USA" thing and "we own those factories in China" thing, while at the same time admitting publicly (in a place few people look) that they outsource 75% of their product line to companies in Asia.

Which is rather amusing, given what they claim to be....
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Aric Datesman wrote: True. But not all manufacturers tout the "Made in USA" thing and "we own those factories in China" thing, while at the same time admitting publicly (in a place few people look) that they outsource 75% of their product line to companies in Asia.
I think that is pretty low on the list of false advertisements and that modern American corporations engage in. Unscrupulous business practices are the backbone of American corporate marketing and sales, coupled with consumer laziness and stupidity.
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
Nivel Egres wrote:Climb: Our climb line consists of technical equipment such as belay/rappel devices, bouldering products, carabiners and quickdraws, chalk, chalk bags, climbing packs, crampons, crash pads, harnesses, climbing packs, crampons, technical and mountaineering ice axes, ice and rock protection devices, a bouldering line of technical apparel, and various other climbing accessories. Our climb line represented approximately 23% of our sales during the year ended December 31, 2013. Total revenue was $203mm, so $47mm. I recall hearing that Metolius total revenue was from 10 to 20 million per year, which is consistent. Protection is probably a small prtion of the total sales.
My point.... Soft goods are a much, much bigger share of that market. Backpacks, slings, shoes, harnesses all have short lifespans, so it makes sense to compare BD to Petzl and Arc'teryx. Thing is, Metolious, KONG and Trango all have product lines that are a closer match to what BD offers, yet they go unmentioned.
Gordon88 · · Pennsylvania · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 0
20 kN wrote: I am not, that's pretty common to many manufacturers. Even their C4 cams are only partly made by them. Bally Ribbon Mills makes their webbing, they buy their steel cable on spools from cable manufacturers, I doubt they make the plastic on the product (e.g. trigger and cable coating). They are just the final assembler for a lot of their product. Case in point, Rock Exotica makes a lot of products for a number of other companies. They make a number of Petzl's carabiners. Then of course some of Rock Exotica's products arnt made by them (e.g. the Enforcer). It's pretty funny, one manufacturer makes another's products, and that manufacturer has a different manufacturer making their own products.
I don't think that it a bad thing, just how manufacturing is done. Different parts of the manufacturing process is outsources to other companies. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. They aren't going to buy/construct a steel mill, make their own wire. They aren't going to build a chemical plant to and make their own nylon, with oil they drilled themselves. etc...

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if all they did was assemble the final product. I have worked in (non climbing companies) places that did less... But I also think that it is a fine, and necessary way to do business.
Donald Letts · · Golden, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 149
delly84 wrote:saw someone at the creek this weekend take a fall on Puma near the top. .2 x4 blew, .3 x4 blew and broke and then the biner on his #1 c4 must have gotten cross loaded and broke, then his .4 x4 finally held. afterwards his .2 still sort of worked, but the lobes were definitely misshapen afterwards pictures attached.
I was thinking about this today and I also wanted to mention that the belayer was using a grigri and that this gent had been working the route most of the afternoon and falling (with i assume the same rope), both of which probably caused more force to be exerted on his protection.

I also heard back from his buddy and he said they sent the cams back to BD and they are sending replacements. Pretty cool.

two links for reference:
Myth 7: GriGris are the best choice for multipitch trad climbing belays
Climb Safe: Do Ropes Need to Rest Between Falls?
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Healyje wrote: Yes, I bet it did by the time they loaded it down with everything but the kitchen sink - look at the SG&A section for what they heaped on there. My numbers are just speculating on cam sales contribution to gross profit.
Sandbagging SG&A to avoid paying dividends or taxes is no way to attract investors or impress the board. BDE looks like it is investing heavily in infrastructure and taking on debt to finance it. They finished last year with a paltry 4.4M in cash.

Frankly, investing in BDE looks questionable. Their most profitable years come from tax deferment income. Gross profit margin appears to be improving year over year but they're spending money like crazy (and taking on debt). Maybe the apparel line will give them the margin bump they need to dig out. However, since BD was bought they don't look like they're improving and their stock prices aren't inspiring.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
delly84 wrote:saw someone at the creek this weekend take a fall on Puma near the top. .2 x4 blew, .3 x4 blew and broke and then the biner on his #1 c4 must have gotten cross loaded and broke, then his .4 x4 finally held. afterwards his .2 still sort of worked, but the lobes were definitely misshapen afterwards pictures attached.
....
delly84 wrote:I was thinking about this today and I also wanted to mention that the belayer was using a grigri and that this gent had been working the route most of the afternoon and falling (with i assume the same rope), both of which probably caused more force to be exerted on his protection.
I'd probably buy that if just the 6kn .2 blew, but with the 8kn .3 blowing and the biner breaking I'd have to ask if the person was repeatedly resting on the gear between goes; if he ever bothered to recheck / reset either placement; and was he clipped directly to the cams such that they were rotating up to the horizontal as he passed them. In general it's typically pilot error of some sort when this sort of thing occurs.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"In general it's typically pilot error of some sort when this sort of thing occurs."

Fucking A, right on the mark!
Kristen Fiore · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 3,383
Locker wrote:"In general it's typically pilot error of some sort when this sort of thing occurs." Fucking A, right on the mark!
True. That's why when three different pilots experience the same error it gets noticed.
Donald Letts · · Golden, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 149
Healyje wrote: .... I'd probably buy that if just the 6kn .2 blew, but with the 8kn .3 blowing and the biner breaking I'd have to ask if the person was repeatedly resting on the gear between goes; if he ever bothered to recheck / reset either placement; and was he clipped directly to the cams such that they were rotating up to the horizontal as he passed them. In general it's typically pilot error of some sort when this sort of thing occurs.
I saw him place everything ground up. It's true he didn't extend anything but the line doesn't wander at all, so i'm having a hard time thinking it was a walked placement.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

Taking a fall out of a vertical straight crack can cause the placements to walk. The top placement shouldn't walk much, but the placements below it can, especially when they are not extended. Taking multiple falls I can only imagine will aggravate this problem further.

Not letting the rope rest didn't help either. Impact force which is so crucial for trad placements, goes up significantly after catching that first fall. I was surprised to learn I should rest a rope for 24 hours after a hard whip.

Three climbers, out of the 1000's who are happily placing x4's. Ever consider that those three could be making the same mistake/miscalculation?

evan h · · Longmont, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 360

My apologies for re-hashing what's probably already a played out forum post. And apologies again, as I definitely haven't read all the responses here.

Yesterday I took a sizable fall (15-20') onto a 0.4 X4. It held. Once I got home though, I noticed that when I pulled the trigger, one of the lobes would stay engaged as it was rubbing against one of the wires. There was also a bit of wear on the lobe, but nothing worth retiring in my mind. Here's my thoughts: (1) It did its job and caught me on a big fall. I haven't taken a fall this big before, and I'm just happy that I stopped on the end of the rope, and not crumbled at the deck. (2) I think I could still use this cam is, but I'm still going to likely return to BD to have the wire re-configured, or whatever is this case.

Assuming it fully opens, are cams generally still functional in a case like this? Again, I'm going to err on the side of caution and send it in.

Cam lobe stuck when rubbing against the wire.

Lobe abrasion.

Cam will fully open once you gently push it past the wire.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Its possible you twisted one of the axles slightly

I suspect this is what happened to one if my partners grey x4 in a fall as well ... One lobe was stuck afterwards

;)

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Craig Childre wrote: Three climbers, out of the 1000's who are happily placing x4's. Ever consider that those three could be making the same mistake/miscalculation?
Well, there are few questions here to address.

1) Is it really 3 out of 1000's?
Certainly 1000's of people are using the product. But at they all represented here? Did everyone who broke a cam post here? Those three could be making up only a fraction of the population. The Alien problem started with 1,2,3... and not all posted here.

2) Sure, there could be the same mistake made by all, but they are not talking about this with other products. Is it a design that is susceptible to a common error, and thus less safe or durable? There could be an issue and I think It is healthy to discuss it here.

evan h wrote: I think I could still use this cam is, but I'm still going to likely return to BD to have the wire re-configured, or whatever is this case. Assuming it fully opens, are cams generally still functional in a case like this?
Also, if you have a sticky cam, consider that a safety issue.
If you place that thing and the cam is not properly forced to the rock, or makes less than intended contact, it might rip on you. Replace/Repair/Rewire, whatever. It's safety equipment.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

These struck me as rushed during initial marketing to get it out there quickly to compete with Fixes aliens.

I mean, its great and all that BD will say yeah, we'll replace that, but if it fails on you on pitch two of ten... or worse... those are major problems.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

The axles float freely along the head. This is totally normal but at times, the axles may be lopsided. Lube the cam and adjust the axles so it equally extended on both sides.

Lobe abrasion.
In the photo you can see that the lobe in question has a gap between it and the head. It should be up against the head.

Before you send the cam back to BD, clean and lube the cam. It may just be stuck.

It could be like bearbreeder said a bent axle too. In which case it's scrap.

Kristen Fiore · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 3,383
Craig Childre wrote: Three climbers, out of the 1000's who are happily placing x4's. Ever consider that those three could be making the same mistake/miscalculation?
The entire purpose of this thread was to gauge (informally, obviously) whether this was true. I don't know 1000s of climbers with X4 cams. I know 7. Three of them have had one break.

Got me thinking...hmmm...wonder if it's just my super small sample size or a symptom of a greater issue.

And thus the most annoying thread I've ever started was born. :)
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

Understandable. A friend of mine in high school, 4 of the guys she dated seriously in high school all died shortly after graduation. Another, her 3 serious boyfriends ended up being gay.

So you never know.

Then again, we/I could be the fool/s here, defending a defective product. I just believe in BD's testing and quality control. Understanding, that nothing is forever, and people and companies change.

I must confess, when the time comes to double up the x-4 range. I'm probably gonna pick up some of those new design Master Cams. Which wasn't the case before this thread. So Thanks ;)

Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

A bigger safety concern regarding this thread, over the ability of Black Diamond and/or Metolius to make safe hardware (which both have a tremendous proven history of) is the fact that many if not most trad leaders are simply not extending their trad pieces adequately. If this is more frequent then before, I attribute it to the popularity of sport climbing and the natural progression present day of learning sport first and then getting into trad climbing.

Your belayer admitted that none of your pieces were extended, but that the route did not wander so why would that be in an issue? A pitch can be straight up and down but where you place a cam and how it reacts to said placement has a ton of variable. What depth is it in the crack? Is it below a bulge or roof? Everybody has anecdotal evidence and is posting based on that which is natural and valuable field information.

My anecdotal observation is that I can say with certainty that 90% of the folks I climb with who have less then ten years experience, no matter what guide certifications they might have in their pocket, are not extending their trad pieces adequately to anticipate the direction and impact of a potential fall, which must be done for each piece automatically and without hesitation. The only other consideration is keeping your ankles or body off of a ledge. The harder (and thus steeper) the climb, the more pieces could and should be extended (because now there are no ledges)...and in many cases, I might extend every one of them. It is the safer way to climb and for sure results in less damage to and/or stuck cams.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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