Hidden Valley

I was up at Hidden Valley today and it was absolutely awesome. It's been 12? or so years since it's been "open" to climbers. I have searched online quite extensively and have found no beta on what the routes are. My climbing party of three climbed 5 routes today that seemed doable by looking at the wall (which worked out well). It seems weird that there are no routes online somewhere that lay out the walls and what grades are. I know the individuals who put first ascents put names to routes and walls so where is all this beta hiding?? My partners and I are making names so we can refer to places but DO NOT want to take anything away from those who put all the stiff routes up. I would love to hear from locals that have lived in the area for a while and know more about this place. Is there a link or a book that has info? Any beta is MORE than welcome. Virginia has little to no rope climbing to speak of and to have these great cliffs we can access.... wow. I walked away feeling euphoric.

You will have to bring that up with the CCC, and your not the only one with that gripe. Although they have bought it, the want to limit who climbs there by limiting the beta. Welcome to Carolina climbing....

Actually that is not true. We did not release a guide when the crag opened last October for a couple of reasons - 1) there was not one and 2) parking, with #1 being the main reason. We had hoped to improve the parking situation over the winter, but we have not had any success with that yet. Because it was such a locals crag and there was a pretty small community that climbed there it never had a really full fledged guide. Since we were not certain the deal was actually going to go through until very late in the process we decided to go ahead and open the crag as soon as we could since the prime season was coming up, despite no guide being available. We figured that people would prefer just figuring stuff out for a while to waiting.

Gus is supposedly working on a guide and since he put up the vast majority of those routes it makes sense to defer to him for that. I'm hoping we'll have something for the event we are planning up there in September. In the interim, there are often folks around on the weekends who can provide beta. Glad you enjoyed it, we do still need to finish paying for it so if you are able and can send some money to the Hidden Valley Fund it would be appreciated!

As for the parking, please do not block the road and park in the lot in a way that maximizes the spaces available. That lot is shared with hikers, hunters and other recreational users. If the lot is full, you can also continue past the lot and down towards the lake and there is a large parking lot and pit toilet just about 1 mile from the cliff. It's not a bad walk back for one person to drop their gear and shuttle the car.

Thanks for clarifying Brian! Its good to squash silly rumors before they can get too big in someone's mind and create issues that aren't even present.

And if you climb there, please think about donating even just a few bucks to help pay it off...maybe even donate however much it would have cost for a gym pass that day, to the Hidden Valley Fund each time you climb there?!. These resources don't pay for themselves and this gem is worth every penny you can spare!!!

I can see how parking could be a big potential problem... not much space up there in the lot. I definitely will contribute to funding the area because its a special place for sure. Thanks Brian for letting me know! Do you work with the ccc?

Yes. I am the current president . Hope you can come to our September event. It's going to be cool and beta rich. Keep an eye on our website and Facebook for updates as we get closer.

So you are limiting beta because of limited parking so that locals can still get there parking spots.

On a side note, I personally am not pissed about it, I just find it hilarious how North Carolina sometimes does things. Trust me, I love the climbing up that way.

Brian,

Is the CCC still opposed to sharing route info via Mountain Project?
I realize that crowding of the parking lot is an issue, but it seems like the best way to encourage donations is to get people climbing there so they realize what an excellent resource this is.

Just some thoughts.

Ryan7crew: I think you should re-read what Brian posted. He never said the goal was to provide parking for only locals. In fact, the purchase of Hidden Valley was announced on the ccc website, the access fund website, and facebook.

I live in Damascus and climb at Hidden Valley Frequently. Can you tell me about what you did? Maybe I can figure it out. There's a hand written topo floating around with some info, but it's less than stellar. Let me know when you come climbing up here, I'd like to join you. You can email me at andrewjacobblease@gmail.com

Andrew

ABG: Maybe local was the wrong term. I meant more along the lines of people "in the know." As people have brought up, its not on mountain project, and I know that has been addressed on other forums.

Edit: I could have dreamed up that last fact. Now I'm thinking I might have mixed up North Carolina ethics debates. But it still isn't on mountain project

I think that is one way to look at it but in this case, I think that traffic is being limited until there is a viable parking situation as Brian stated. I guess you can call it NC ethics but the climbing area is there and the CCC has announced it being open. Its easy to find how to get there and where it is. Guide is only a limiting factor for those unwilling to try bolted routes without knowing the grade.

ABG, limiting access until there is a bigger parking lot is a valid strategy, however it seems that the CCC is talking up all the great routes (on their website and Facebook page) while discouraging others from doing the same (by posting those excellent routes on Mountain Project) I would be interested to hear from someone with the CCC about why they take issue with Mountain Project. I think it would be a great resource, even in conjunction with that photocopied guide everyone has, and allow people to share thoughts on route quality and the condition of the bolts more easily. Posting Hidden Valley on Mountain Project would be in the interest of the CCC as well, because it would encourage much needed donations so they can start replacing more of the bolts people have been whipping on every day out there.

Just a CCC member voicing my opinion. Thanks to Brian for all the effort he puts into access conservation, and to all the CCC folks.

Wblack wrote:ABG, limiting access until there is a bigger parking lot is a valid strategy, however it seems that the CCC is talking up all the great routes (on their website and Facebook page) while discouraging others from doing the same (by posting those excellent routes on Mountain Project) I would be interested to hear from someone with the CCC about why they take issue with Mountain Project. I think it would be a great resource, even in conjunction with that photocopied guide everyone has, and allow people to share thoughts on route quality and the condition of the bolts more easily. Posting Hidden Valley on Mountain Project would be in the interest of the CCC as well, because it would encourage much needed donations so they can start replacing more of the bolts people have been whipping on every day out there. Just a CCC member voicing my opinion. Thanks to Brian for all the effort he puts into access conservation, and to all the CCC folks.

Actually a number of bolts have already been replaced, funded by the CCC, although there is still more work to do. I don't have anything against Mountain Project, but there I also don't think that it is time to put Hidden Valley on here. Most likely Ryan is remembering my posts about not putting it on here back when we were negotiating for the property. Posting a privately owned, closed area while trying to convince the land owner to sell it wasn't in anyones best interests.

That being said, I still would prefer not to see HV on here yet. There are a lot of bolts that need to be replaced (we've asked people to use the rebolting database on our website to note routes) and the parking remains an issue. I've already had one landowner contact me about cars blocking the road and we have not been able to get the wildlife management area folks who manage the parking lot to consider expanding the lot, despite concerted efforts.

Mountain Project is a great resource, but it's not the only resource and posting here will definitely drive more traffic to the cliff and we don't think it is quite ready for that yet. It seems that the word is getting out just fine and lots of people have found the crag - many likely from the explicit directions on our web site so it's not exactly a secret. At the moment, Mountain Project doesn't add value to Hidden Valley and potentially creates issues. That will likely change at some point. Let's remember the cliff was closed for 10 years and has only been open for 6 months and some things take time to sort out.

Brian Payst wrote: Actually a number of bolts have already been replaced, funded by the CCC, although there is still more work to do. I don't have anything against Mountain Project, but there I also don't think that it is time to put Hidden Valley on here. Most likely Ryan is remembering my posts about not putting it on here back when we were negotiating for the property. Posting a privately owned, closed area while trying to convince the land owner to sell it wasn't in anyones best interests. That being said, I still would prefer not to see HV on here yet. There are a lot of bolts that need to be replaced (we've asked people to use the rebolting database on our website to note routes) and the parking remains an issue. I've already had one landowner contact me about cars blocking the road and we have not been able to get the wildlife management area folks who manage the parking lot to consider expanding the lot, despite concerted efforts. Mountain Project is a great resource, but it's not the only resource and posting here will definitely drive more traffic to the cliff and we don't think it is quite ready for that yet. It seems that the word is getting out just fine and lots of people have found the crag - many likely from the explicit directions on our web site so it's not exactly a secret. At the moment, Mountain Project doesn't add value to Hidden Valley and potentially creates issues. That will likely change at some point. Let's remember the cliff was closed for 10 years and has only been open for 6 months and some things take time to sort out.

I didn't say the CCC hadn't replaced bolts, I just mentioned that more knowledge on HV=More donations=More rebolting. Although the size of the parking lot is an issue, it seems the best way to deal with this issue is through education about the second parking area, since the parking lot already fills from time to time. In addition to being a good way to let people know about the parking situation, I think a Mountain Project page adds value to Hidden Valley in the following ways: it's a much more effective rebolting database than the one on the CCC website, as it's used by more climbers in our region, it also adds the same value of any guidebook: allowing visitors to choose routes that are likely to be enjoyable and within their ability. Anyone who has used a guidebook will agree that having that knowledge increases the value of an area. That's why there's a demand for information about the routes at Hidden Valley, and that's why Gus is writing a guidebook: because it increases the value of the area (and people want one enough to spend money on it). I'm not about to go over your head and just post a bunch of routes on MP, just sharing my opinion as someone who has had the chance to enjoy HV several times since it opened.

Sure, those are all legitimate statements, However, there are a lot of climbing areas in the country (and in NC) that are not on Mountain Project for a number of reasons. Although I agree that more visibility = more donations, we're actually doing quite well on fundraising without it being on Mountain Project. Not having routes here has not impacted your ability to enjoy the cliff, nor lots of other people's. Like I said, I think a time will come when we're totally fine with routes being posted here, but we're just not at that point yet and I appreciate the patience we are asking for from the local community.

This debate sounds familiar:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/nc-sauratown-section-/109963646

Until Gus publishes a guide, word of mouth will likely be the best option for learning about the area. Attending "Rally for the Valley" the second weekend in September will offer opportunities to climb with those who know more about the routes. In addition, some of the area's first ascensionists will be presenting a slideshow with stories of route development. Keep an eye open for pre-registration on the CCC website.

Chris Massey wrote:This debate sounds familiar: mountainproject.com/v/nc-sa…

Ahh, this was the great NC ethics debate I was mixing my facts up with.

That's a pretty weak example of an NC ethics debate. NC climbers are capable of so much more. Trust me, I know.

@Ryan7crew If you think that was the "Great NC Ethics Debate", you must have never heard of a little something called the Hawksbill Summit and what led up to that!

I'm curious what your beef is with the CCC, the non profit volunteer group that purchased the property so folks just like you could enjoy it? You must have a good reason for all of your begrudging statements...seems like there's more to it than the fact that the now land owner doesn't want explicit information about the area on a website until it's more prepared for the amount of traffic it would cause.?