Stoppers in Horizontal Cracks

Greg Pouliot wrote:I love that the 2 obvious gunks climbers don't go straight to "tricams are the best!", but everybody else does. They are obviously awesome so I'm told, I've never actually placed one, but you can certainly place good nuts in horizontals. Gunks climbers would know this best. Also, I feel like it's worth mentioning here that gunks horizontals aren't smooth things in a lot of cases like places out west may be. You can find tons on little knobs and crystals and stubbies inside most every horizontal you find yourself in front of.

love nuts in horizontals in the gunks. enough weird slots.

Greg Pouliot wrote:I love that the 2 obvious gunks climbers don't go straight to "tricams are the best!"

Tricams have their uses, although I think they are specialty pieces. Obviously, they aren't needed for keyhole situations. When the horizontal is parallel-sided, they will definitely work, but are typically inferior to a cam placement because they are harder to place one-handed, less stable, and can be very hard to get out (usually requiring two hands and a knowledge of the appropriate technique).

The advantages of tricams are a much narrower head width than cams in comparable sizes, and so the ability to be placed in holes or hole-like features in cracks that won't even admit a cam. Although nothing is great once the crack becomes flared, in my experience tricams work better than cams in slightly outward flared placements, and I've encountered a flared horizontal or two where you can get pretty good protection with tricams but a cam will barely even stay in place.

The narrow head width also means that tricams can be placed in shallow vertical cracks that would only take three of the four lobes of a regular cam.

On top of this, tricams work very well as passive pro, and the newer ones with tapered sides are even more versatile, although I think some head width has been added to create the taper. And, of course, they are light compared to cams.

So there are plenty of good qualities, but the downsides are also considerable, and the situations truly demanding tricams advantages are rare in the Gunks. Sure you can place them a lot, but most of the time cam will be a better option for both the leader and the second. I think a black, pink, and red is plenty if you're going to carry them at all. Tuck them away in the back, because you really aren't going to need them much.

Williams is pretty good about mentioning when tricams might be useful. I can't say I've tried to verify all his claims, but in one or two cases I can remember his advice was most welcome.

rgold wrote: Tricams have their uses, although I think they are specialty pieces. Obviously, they aren't needed for keyhole situations. When the horizontal is parallel-sided, they will definitely work, but are typically inferior to a cam placement because they are harder to place one-handed, less stable, and can be very hard to get out (usually requiring two hands and a knowledge of the appropriate technique). The advantages of tricams are a much narrower head width than cams in comparable sizes, and so the ability to be placed in holes or hole-like features in cracks that won't even admit a cam. Although nothing is great once the crack becomes flared, in my experience tricams work better than cams in slightly outward flared placements, and I've encountered a flared horizontal or two where you can get pretty good protection with tricams but a cam will barely even stay in place. The narrow head width also means that tricams can be placed in shallow vertical cracks that would only take three of the four lobes of a regular cam. On top of this, tricams work very well as passive pro, and the newer ones with tapered sides are even more versatile, although I think some head width has been added to create the taper. And, of course, they are light compared to cams. So there are plenty of good qualities, but the downsides are also considerable, and the situations truly demanding tricams advantages are rare in the Gunks. Sure you can place them a lot, but most of the time cam will be a better option for both the leader and the second. I think a black, pink, and red is plenty if you're going to carry them at all. Tuck them away in the back, because you really aren't going to need them much. Williams is pretty good about mentioning when tricams might be useful. I can't say I've tried to verify all his claims, but in one or two cases I can remember his advice was most welcome.

All I know is that most people say they're a bitch to take out when seconding, and I've never had problems finding good cam placements or nut placements. I also think it's important to become skilled with placing stoppers, as most people I've climbed with just go for whatever's easiest. It's those odd situations though when you're out of cams and the crack is a little weird and you've just got to place a nut that those skills will save your ass. Happy climbing everyone.

rgold wrote: Tricams have their uses, although I think they are specialty pieces. Obviously, they aren't needed for keyhole situations. When the horizontal is parallel-sided, they will definitely work, but are typically inferior to a cam placement because they are harder to place one-handed, less stable, and can be very hard to get out (usually requiring two hands and a knowledge of the appropriate technique). The advantages of tricams are a much narrower head width than cams in comparable sizes, and so the ability to be placed in holes or hole-like features in cracks that won't even admit a cam. Although nothing is great once the crack becomes flared, in my experience tricams work better than cams in slightly outward flared placements, and I've encountered a flared horizontal or two where you can get pretty good protection with tricams but a cam will barely even stay in place. The narrow head width also means that tricams can be placed in shallow vertical cracks that would only take three of the four lobes of a regular cam. On top of this, tricams work very well as passive pro, and the newer ones with tapered sides are even more versatile, although I think some head width has been added to create the taper. And, of course, they are light compared to cams. So there are plenty of good qualities, but the downsides are also considerable, and the situations truly demanding tricams advantages are rare in the Gunks. Sure you can place them a lot, but most of the time cam will be a better option for both the leader and the second. I think a black, pink, and red is plenty if you're going to carry them at all. Tuck them away in the back, because you really aren't going to need them much. Williams is pretty good about mentioning when tricams might be useful. I can't say I've tried to verify all his claims, but in one or two cases I can remember his advice was most welcome.

i'm surprised you didn't mention the single most important, IMO, for tricam over cam in a horizontal: if you have a big fall, there is a possibility of kinking/breaking the trigger wires/cable or any other part that gets bent over an edge. this doesn't happen with tricams and, especially if you tape them like i do, you get limited damage, if any to the sling. it's much cheaper to resling a tricam than to replace a cam that either had to be retired or was irretrivable because the trigger wires got fucked. that being said, i'm likely to use a cam over a tri-cam unless i have a good stance that isn't going to pump me out while i wiggle in a good tricam placement.

If a cam stops a "big fall" as you mentioned, that was hard enough to break trigger wires and irreparably bend or kink the stem, then it's earned is right to retire, I've got my money's worth, and have no problem throwing down the cash for a new one.

Jeremy Bauman wrote:I climbed Bruja's Brew in Red Rocks the other day and had to use opposing nuts to avoid a slight runout above the roof as I left the little cams in my pack. When my follower got there, I had her clove into the sling and bounce test. No movement at all!

http://www.mountainproject.com/images/61/82/110376182_medium_8f73b5.jpg

Maybe it is just the picture but if the blue nut rips i do not see how the other nut will do anything?

wankel7 wrote: mountainproject.com/images/… Maybe it is just the picture but if the blue nut rips i do not see how the other nut will do anything?

The point of oppositional nuts isn't redundancy. A fall on this piece pulls onboth pieces. If one goes, they both go. The point is you are changing the direction of pull on the nuts, the same geometry that makes the American death triangle dangerous, make opposed nuts work

It is true that, in principle, if one of the opposed nuts fails the other one will too, otherwise opposition wasn't necessary to begin with. But as I said earlier, it is possible to get lucky, so purposely condemning the system to failure if one piece fails (in addition to increasing the load to one of the anchors if there is no failure), when it is possible to rig redundantly, is not an ideal strategy.

wankel7 wrote: mountainproject.com/images/… Maybe it is just the picture but if the blue nut rips i do not see how the other nut will do anything?

@wankel7, you are correct, if the blue nut rips, the other would do nothing. But in this particular instance, the only option for this placement was for opposing nuts that were relatively close together. The purpose of the gold nut was not redundancy, it was to change the direction of pull on the blue nut.

As @rgold pointed out, there is often a better way to place nuts in opposition so as to have the chance of redundancy. However, in the placement in the photo, I deemed the best placement to be opposing with the pulley configuration seen because the nuts were absolutely bomber when pulled together, but would not resist an outward pull very well. In the event of a fall, I wanted as much inward force as possible.

As I mentioned in the photo, I had my follower clove into the draw and take several hard bounces when on belay from above, the placement didn't budge. I am pretty confident this would have held held had I fallen before my next placement.

Tricams for life.... i don't leave the ground with out them. usually i get to the belay where i have to setup a trad anchor and thats the only thing left. its good to have a few because the there are more placement options than other pro.

Alexander Parrish wrote:Tricams for life.... i don't leave the ground with out them. usually i get to the belay where i have to setup a trad anchor and thats the only thing left. its good to have a few because the there are more placement options than other pro.

with you on that one. sometimes i even take them sport climbing in case i need to aid my way out of a sticky situation. they're so light that i rarely even notice the weight

on multipitch or unknown sport climbs a few nuts are often a good idea ...

a hanger may well be missing ....

;)

eli poss wrote: with you on that one. sometimes i even take them sport climbing in case i need to aid my way out of a sticky situation. they're so light that i rarely even notice the weight

I take them sport climbing because, at least around here, there are occasionally routes that look like sport routes from the bottom, but after you've been climbing for a while you discover that really it was a mixed route.

rgold wrote: It sounds as if you are getting advice from folks who don't know what they're talking about. Obviously, you can only place a stopper in a horizontal crack if the crack has features that will allow the stopper to wedge somehow. The best type of feature is a "keyhole," a formation in which the crack is narrower in front than in back, but with a widening to one or both sides that allows the stopper to be pushed in, slid sideways, and then pulled back out and into place at the keyhole. Keyhole placements, when you can find them, are arguably the best placements there are, because unlike nut placements in vertical cracks, they cannot lift out, and they are usually stronger, more secure, and more reliable than cams.

Thanks for this explanation. I've made a few of these placements and smile every time knowing it's so bomber, but I never knew the term.

Jeremy Bauman wrote:I climbed Bruja's Brew in Red Rocks the other day and had to use opposing nuts to avoid a slight runout above the roof as I left the little cams in my pack. When my follower got there, I had her clove into the sling and bounce test. No movement at all!

This is a very unsound nut placement for catching a fall. When fallen on, the wires will cinch together, thus creating a near 180 degree angle in the connection and producing overwhelming force on the nuts. It is for this very reason that we always want to minimize the angle in the connection between two pieces.

There are several variations of this deadly setup, one involving a sling as seen here: climbing.com/skills/nuts-101/

The correct version of this placement can be found in Climbing Anchors by John Long and Bob Gaines. It requires connecting the two pieces with clove hitches to maintain a safe angle by preventing cinching.

Eric Moss wrote: This is a very unsound nut placement for catching a fall. When fallen on, the wires will cinch together, thus creating a near 180 degree angle in the connection and producing overwhelming force on the nuts. It is for this very reason that we always want to minimize the angle in the connection between two pieces. There are several variations of this deadly setup, one involving a sling as seen here: climbing.com/skills/nuts-101/ The correct version of this placement can be found in Climbing Anchors by John Long and Bob Gaines. It requires connecting the two pieces with clove hitches to maintain a safe angle by preventing cinching.

Eric, thanks for your input! This is certainly a great topic of discussion as the last 2 pages have demonstrated!

I get your rigid tone, but I think that this isn't as black and white of an issue as many other items in climbing.
As far as my "very unsound" nut placement, the placement in the photo was aggressively bounce tested by the follower. We do want to minimize angles when connecting two pieces, but in this situation, that was not a possibility. The crack presented minimal opportunities of any kind. Neither of the two nuts pictured would have been good for a downward pull. They were bomber pulled inwards, but not out. The goal of my placement was to maximize the inward pull on each nut--a feat I accomplished by using the pulley effect to my advantage all the while understanding that the overalls strength of this placement was not 100% ideal.

This "deadly" setup was the best placement option presented--making it far from deadly. I would have used a sling as you recommend, but didn't have enough horizontal space.

If you know of any tests regarding this topic, I would be vary grateful if you share them!

- Jeremy

I'm a fan of nylon-slung hexes. No kinking risk as with wires or cams, and a horizontal crack is practically the optimal arrangement for using the hex's active mode.

rgold wrote:It is true that, in principle, if one of the opposed nuts fails the other one will too, otherwise opposition wasn't necessary to begin with.

The second nut can serve two purposes though- one is redirecting forces, but the other can be preventing the first nut from walking/falling out, right?

bearbreeder wrote:on multipitch or unknown sport climbs a few nuts are often a good idea ... a hanger may well be missing .... ;)

More than anything, the potential for a missing hanger seems like reason to add a spare hangar & nut to my sport kit...

JacksonLandFill wrote:Thanks to William for starting this thread, never would I have thought of stacking nuts.

climbing friend,

do you not stack them every time you go asleep on your bed lying on your side?

All the climbing here is on horizontal breaks and slabs, not much in the way of crack climbing, nuts and hexes work great I struggle allot more finding decent placements in vertical cracks than i do horizontal.

Patrick Shyvers wrote: More than anything, the potential for a missing hanger seems like reason to add a spare hangar & nut to my sport kit...

A stopper would be better. Not all hangers/nuts will fit all bolts. If you packed a 3/8" hanger and come across a 1/2" bolt then you're SOL. Also, adding hangers like that runs a good chance of mixing metals. It might seem like a good service at first, until the whole bolt becomes a rusty mess.