Proper belay technique for the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay.
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Dylan B. wrote: That's true, but even when "locked" I found the 9.5 was slipping through pretty smoothly unless I held the brake strand in place.Good to know! What kind of carabiner are you using in this setup? I know standard ATCs generate higher friction with I-beam carabiners, but I wonder if you can compensate for a skinny rope with a nice fat bar-stock carabiner. Finally a reason to use this monster ? :) |
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Dylan B. wrote: Petzl William Screw-Gate , per bearbreeder's recommendation. When I first bought it, I was using a BD Rocklock, but found that was too prone to cross-loading. To be clear, I just fixed a single line from above, then fed the line through the Smart and clipped to my harness. I hitched myself up until I was sitting on the device (like a single line rappel), and when I let go of the brake, I would slide down the single line fairly smoothly. I'm a pretty small guy--140 lbs--so this was kind of surprising. With the 10.2 I could sit there all day and never slide an inch.in an actual fall the infinity will lock up sufficiently with the hand on the brake strand ... ive held many a fall on it ... but it simply aint hands free ... on a single line rap as you found out the infinity will slip in a smart ... and it may as well when lowering someone which is why the smart is NOT a hands free device ... and why proper belay skills with an ATC style device is essential when moving to these assisted locking ones ;) |
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I belay that way. Never dropped anyone, haven't had a complaint from any partner, no near misses. Caught plenty of whippers. |
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So... having your hand loosely around the rope rather than in a death grip is the same thing as letting go of the rope? I don't think so. |
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I've used the Alpine Smart extensively for 3 years now. |
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Dylan B. wrote: Right. I wasn't doubting that. But the question is whether, when using a sort of "loose grip" technique on the brake strand as I've been using with the 10.2, a sudden fall might allow the rope to slip through the device too quickly to clamp down on it with the brake hand. With the 10.2 there's no way the rope would move through the device too quickly for me to clamp down on it. With the 9.5...I'm not sure.as long as yr thumb is off the catch and the hand fully one the rope during a fall its fine and dont park that thumb on the catch unless yr feeding ;) |
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Dylan B. wrote: Right. I wasn't doubting that. But the question is whether, when using a sort of "loose grip" technique on the brake strand as I've been using with the 10.2, a sudden fall might allow the rope to slip through the device too quickly to clamp down on it with the brake hand. With the 10.2 there's no way the rope would move through the device too quickly for me to clamp down on it. With the 9.5...I'm not sure.I use the smart often with a 9.8 and also use the slide technique some. I have no problem and I have never had it slip. i realize that u are talking about a 9.5 but just thought i would let you know it works great with a 9.8. If you are worried about it and really like the smart device, they have a version for smaller ropes. But honestly, as long as the belayer is paying attention and not just letting go of the rope completely, i think you will be just fine even if you use the slide method. As bearbreeder pointed out, the biggest issue is pulling on the thumb during a fall and disengaging the device. |
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Haven't had slippage on a 9.3 either. Odd. |
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Climb for joy wrote: The issue is that he is letting go of the brake strand even though the hand is encircling the rope with no grip on it. This is how you lose control of the rope on a non-locking belay device if the climber falls just at that moment when the belayer lets go of the brake strand. My understanding of the old school techniques is that they have been supplanted by safer techniques like BUS. I too learned an old school technique in belaying, of brake hand move up and the brake strand comes parallel to the climber rope, hand on the climber rope grabs the brake strand with two fingers and brake hand slides down the rope, then brake hand back down below the belay device. I used it for a while until I realized how much safer the BUS method is and forced myself to learn a new and safer technique. I take issue with the "natural reaction" thing to grip the brake strand. I've watched far too many new people learn to belay in the gym to know that good belay technique is not a natural reaction, it is a learned habit that needs to be reinforced periodically with feedback from more experienced, or just other climbers, as experienced climbers can also just as easily have poor belay technique. Just last week I watched a new guy consistently and fearfully grip the climbers side of the rope on top rope falls using the gym Grigri's even after being told that this is not safe to do. There are lots of good comments about good belay technique on auto-locking belay devices in the following threads. mountainproject.com/v/anoth… mountainproject.com/v/payin… And I'd even take this one step further, saying that it is and should be the standard belay technique for any belay device.So how do you feed slack with an atc quickly without letting go of the rope based on your definition? In what circumstances is it safe and then suddenly unsafe? BUS is a great way to teach new people how to climb because its backing up the brake hand when pulling in slack. That doesn't mean that its unsafe to not have a backup hand, because everyone does it when feeding slack with an atc. |
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From my perspective, much of this is just the Belay Police gettin' frisky. As Jim Titt succinctly notes, folks have been sliding their hand along the brake strand since the dawn of recorded time. |
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can everyone watch this, especially at 4 min in ... and all be friends and sing KUMBAYA ? |
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I'm in: |
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You know its going to be a good thread on MP.com when people lead with "at my gym, the only truely safe belay technique is X". |
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^^This |
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Dylan B. wrote: But the question is whether, when using a sort of "loose grip" technique on the brake strand as I've been using with the 10.2, a sudden fall might allow the rope to slip through the device too quickly to clamp down on it with the brake hand. With the 10.2 there's no way the rope would move through the device too quickly for me to clamp down on it. With the 9.5...I'm not sure.If we can´t react fast enough enough to brake the rope then it´s o.k to keep your thumb on the GriGri lever:-) |
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rgold, that last statement of yours summarizes my thoughts perfectly. Thanks. |
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I concur w/ Kiri, rgold speaks wisdom. Have seen someone dropped 30' to gym floor in an "visual and aural" distraction type incident. When questioned, dropper really couldn't explain. Solid 5.12 climber, too///0o |