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Proper belay technique for the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Dylan B. wrote: That's true, but even when "locked" I found the 9.5 was slipping through pretty smoothly unless I held the brake strand in place.
Good to know! What kind of carabiner are you using in this setup? I know standard ATCs generate higher friction with I-beam carabiners, but I wonder if you can compensate for a skinny rope with a nice fat bar-stock carabiner. Finally a reason to use this monster ? :)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Dylan B. wrote: Petzl William Screw-Gate , per bearbreeder's recommendation. When I first bought it, I was using a BD Rocklock, but found that was too prone to cross-loading. To be clear, I just fixed a single line from above, then fed the line through the Smart and clipped to my harness. I hitched myself up until I was sitting on the device (like a single line rappel), and when I let go of the brake, I would slide down the single line fairly smoothly. I'm a pretty small guy--140 lbs--so this was kind of surprising. With the 10.2 I could sit there all day and never slide an inch.
in an actual fall the infinity will lock up sufficiently with the hand on the brake strand ... ive held many a fall on it ...

but it simply aint hands free ... on a single line rap as you found out the infinity will slip in a smart ... and it may as well when lowering someone

which is why the smart is NOT a hands free device ...

and why proper belay skills with an ATC style device is essential when moving to these assisted locking ones

;)
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

I belay that way. Never dropped anyone, haven't had a complaint from any partner, no near misses. Caught plenty of whippers.

If I ever encounter a partner who hassles me about my belay technique. Telling me that the way I 'clasp' the rope during hand movement is considered 'letting go'. I'd probably leave immediately, and go find someone else to partner with.

I totally agree with those who say this thread is based on misconceptions.

Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

So... having your hand loosely around the rope rather than in a death grip is the same thing as letting go of the rope? I don't think so.

I suspect that in standard belaying (even with the BUS technique) there are times when your hand is not locked full-strength on that rope. If you're waiting for the climber to move and you're anticipating feeding rope, do you have a death grip or a light grip? Do you do the BUS thing when feeding rope out? Do you do the BUS thing when taking slack in?

I often have one hand on the upper strand (to the climber) to assist feeding, and if I'm just feeding slack to the leader I don't generally bring that hand back below the brake hand. I consider "having all five fingers wrapped around the brake strand with actual contact with the rope" to be "holding on to the rope", even if I allow said rope to slide through my fingers. If my leader makes a clip, or downclimbs, and I need to take in slack, I do actually do the BUS thing while I take in slack.

BGardner · · Seattle, WA · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 0

I've used the Alpine Smart extensively for 3 years now.
I'd have to put in another vote that the video linked in this thread is showing proper technique for using this device.

Its true that PBUS (Pull Brake Under Slide) is the industry standard for teaching new belayers.
That said, as most belayers gain experience they find there are situations where the "Under" part can be skipped through the described "loose grip slide". This works especially well with braking assist devices such as the Smart or GriGri. As long as the hand stays encircled around the rope there is no problems catching a fall. The trick is that after pulling in slack they still move to the "Brake" position before moving their brake-hand.
With experienced belayers, I would even argue that this is preferred technique as they are able to keep up with the climber, and manage slack far more effectively.

For the record, this is different then the "Slip Slap Slide" method which involves no braking motion. ie. Ropes stay parallel the whole time. "Slip Slap Slide" should not be used anymore with belay devices but is the preferred technique when hip belaying or using a Munter.

Ben
AMGA Certified Rock Guide

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Dylan B. wrote: Right. I wasn't doubting that. But the question is whether, when using a sort of "loose grip" technique on the brake strand as I've been using with the 10.2, a sudden fall might allow the rope to slip through the device too quickly to clamp down on it with the brake hand. With the 10.2 there's no way the rope would move through the device too quickly for me to clamp down on it. With the 9.5...I'm not sure.
as long as yr thumb is off the catch and the hand fully one the rope during a fall its fine

and dont park that thumb on the catch unless yr feeding

;)
Rigggs24 · · Denver, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45
Dylan B. wrote: Right. I wasn't doubting that. But the question is whether, when using a sort of "loose grip" technique on the brake strand as I've been using with the 10.2, a sudden fall might allow the rope to slip through the device too quickly to clamp down on it with the brake hand. With the 10.2 there's no way the rope would move through the device too quickly for me to clamp down on it. With the 9.5...I'm not sure.
I use the smart often with a 9.8 and also use the slide technique some. I have no problem and I have never had it slip. i realize that u are talking about a 9.5 but just thought i would let you know it works great with a 9.8.

If you are worried about it and really like the smart device, they have a version for smaller ropes. But honestly, as long as the belayer is paying attention and not just letting go of the rope completely, i think you will be just fine even if you use the slide method.

As bearbreeder pointed out, the biggest issue is pulling on the thumb during a fall and disengaging the device.
lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30

Haven't had slippage on a 9.3 either. Odd.

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Climb for joy wrote: The issue is that he is letting go of the brake strand even though the hand is encircling the rope with no grip on it. This is how you lose control of the rope on a non-locking belay device if the climber falls just at that moment when the belayer lets go of the brake strand. My understanding of the old school techniques is that they have been supplanted by safer techniques like BUS. I too learned an old school technique in belaying, of brake hand move up and the brake strand comes parallel to the climber rope, hand on the climber rope grabs the brake strand with two fingers and brake hand slides down the rope, then brake hand back down below the belay device. I used it for a while until I realized how much safer the BUS method is and forced myself to learn a new and safer technique. I take issue with the "natural reaction" thing to grip the brake strand. I've watched far too many new people learn to belay in the gym to know that good belay technique is not a natural reaction, it is a learned habit that needs to be reinforced periodically with feedback from more experienced, or just other climbers, as experienced climbers can also just as easily have poor belay technique. Just last week I watched a new guy consistently and fearfully grip the climbers side of the rope on top rope falls using the gym Grigri's even after being told that this is not safe to do. There are lots of good comments about good belay technique on auto-locking belay devices in the following threads. mountainproject.com/v/anoth… mountainproject.com/v/payin… And I'd even take this one step further, saying that it is and should be the standard belay technique for any belay device.
So how do you feed slack with an atc quickly without letting go of the rope based on your definition? In what circumstances is it safe and then suddenly unsafe? BUS is a great way to teach new people how to climb because its backing up the brake hand when pulling in slack. That doesn't mean that its unsafe to not have a backup hand, because everyone does it when feeding slack with an atc.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

From my perspective, much of this is just the Belay Police gettin' frisky. As Jim Titt succinctly notes, folks have been sliding their hand along the brake strand since the dawn of recorded time.

It is true that sometimes the belayer drops a climber. Whether this is ever, even once, due to sliding the brake hand along the brake strand at the instant of falling is a matter of utter conjecture. What we do know is that thousands and thousands of falls have been successfully caught by belayers who slide their hand on the brake strand.

All that said, gyms have created environments that mask the underlying seriousness of belaying and then inundate the belayer with visual and aural distractions. My guess is that an overly casual distracted belayer, perhaps inexperienced to boot, accounts for almost all dropped climbers, and given that reality (if I'm right), there are perfectly good reasons to try to eliminate as many potential sources of belay failure as possible.

With that noble goal in mind, it makes sense to get rid of an artifact of hip-belaying hand motions, which is the process in which the rope strand are held parallel and up in front of the belayer's face while the brake hand is slid down (the ``pinch and slide method, I think). It is just plain dumb to totally eliminate the braking effect of the plate while the brake hand is in motion and with no effective backup from the other hand.

But having got rid of that bit of silliness, what is done with the brake hand is another matter altogether, because now the brake strand is in braking position during any brake-hand motion.

First of all, it matters what direction the brake hand is sliding in. It is not possible to give an effective lead belay without either sliding the brake hand down the brake strand, or keeping the brake hand in a fixed position and pulling slack through it with the other hand. So sliding will always be a part of lead belays for pumping slack to the leader.

When taking in slack as in a top-rope belay, the braking hand has to slide up the brake strand, which is very different. It can't always be done effectively if a long distance along the brake strand has to be covered. That so-called "back-up" hand below the brake hand is arguably there not just as a backup, but rather to tension the belay strand so the brake hand can be slid up while still keeping a close grip. But this isn't necessary, especially if only a small amount of slack has been taken in and the brake hand only has to move up an inch or two or three. In this case it is acceptable and safe to just slide it up, and experienced climbers (including myself) who have never ever dropped anyone do this all the time.

Something I see an enormous amount of that I think could be a problem is the tendency to keep the brake hand almost on top of the belay plate. This means that a fall will instantly jam the brake hand against the plate, which might cause a loss of grip, and it also means that the belayer isn't getting the best in the way of bend angles, and so will have less friction from the plate than is, in principle, available.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

can everyone watch this, especially at 4 min in ... and all be friends and sing KUMBAYA ?

youtube.com/watch?v=ymJb6tW…

;)

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I'm in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

You know its going to be a good thread on MP.com when people lead with "at my gym, the only truely safe belay technique is X".

Andrew Rivera · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 30

^^This

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Dylan B. wrote: But the question is whether, when using a sort of "loose grip" technique on the brake strand as I've been using with the 10.2, a sudden fall might allow the rope to slip through the device too quickly to clamp down on it with the brake hand. With the 10.2 there's no way the rope would move through the device too quickly for me to clamp down on it. With the 9.5...I'm not sure.
If we can´t react fast enough enough to brake the rope then it´s o.k to keep your thumb on the GriGri lever:-)
Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

rgold, that last statement of yours summarizes my thoughts perfectly. Thanks.

taipan jam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 30

I concur w/ Kiri, rgold speaks wisdom. Have seen someone dropped 30' to gym floor in an "visual and aural" distraction type incident. When questioned, dropper really couldn't explain. Solid 5.12 climber, too///0o

Whatever your device, know its "complexities"...

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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