Proper belay technique for the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay.
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I'd like to start a discussion of proper belay technique with the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay. I own both the large and smaller model and use them almost exclusively indoors and outdoors. I'm also one that likes to review and make sure belay technique is safe with others belaying me, including my own when I belay. Recently I just gave a climbing partner a ton of shit for her belay technique with this device, which in hind sight was way overly harsh which I regret, but the gist of the issue is that had she been using a non-locking belay device, she would have dropped myself or other people she was belaying with this technique. Even though this has not happened... yet, as she has not been using a non-locking belay device. I find there is no point in pushing luck. |
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Just curious myself and found this information booklet from Mammut about the Apline Smart: |
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I don't see where in that video you see him removing his hand from the brake strand. Loosening your grip to slide the rope through is not the same as letting go entirely, and in my opinion and experience it is safe. It is extremely easy to simple close your grip and catch a fall. ATC, GriGri or otherwise. If taking in large amounts of slack at a time it can be unwieldy and in that case it is important to bring your other hand down to back yourself up while sliding your hand. That said it is important with assisted locking devices to not accidentally prevent the device from locking (holding down the cam on a GriGri or pulling up on the lever of the Smart). |
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Climb for joy wrote:Their should always be at least one hand firmly gripping the brake strand. None of this loosely encircling the brake line crap. That just creates poor and unsafe belay habits when you have to use a non-locking belay device.Just imagine what you do when you give out slack on an ATC (lead belay). You're not bringing your left (non-brake) hand down every time you slide your brake hand. It's loosely encircling the brake strand, ready to clamp down in case of a fall. (Or maybe you do lead belay in this hyper-careful method, in which case your leader must need to climb really damn slow). |
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Loosening your break hand and sliding it up the rope is considered letting go. Proper belay technique uses your other hand to control the break while you slide your break hand back up towards the device. This method will work with any device on the market and is taught by AMGA, PCIA and virtually any gym across the country. |
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ROC wrote:Loosening your break hand and sliding it up the rope is considered letting go. Proper belay technique uses your other hand to control the break while you slide your break hand back up towards the device. This method will work with any device on the market and is taught by AMGA, PCIA and virtually any gym across the country.Do you lead belay like this with an ATC? youtube.com/watch?v=YvEQrKO… If not I'm curious how you do it without sliding your brake hand. |
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Much ado about nothing. You always keep your hand on the rope, sliding up for lead belaying Same as an atc. I use the alpine smart, and it's breaking strength is pretty bomber, don't let that disclaimer fool you. |
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Nathanael you bring up a good point. What's the real difference here? Yes, this is standard lead belay technique shown in the video. The difference is whether you are taking in rope or feeding it out. Feeding rope you would pay it out as shown in the video. Taking slack in it is typical to use the break under slide technique as discussed above. You can see the woman in the video use this as she takes up slack briefly at 2:50. |
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I'm with Nathaniel. You can belay properly sliding your hand, similar to how you lead belay but backwards. Most important is that you are attentive to your leader and don't get distracted. Assuredly lead falls are harder to catch that top rope falls. |
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All said I agree that BUS (Brake; Under; Slide) is the ideal technique to teach for toprope belay, and it is the technique I use most of the time. When taking in a lot of slack quickly, the BUS technique makes sure you don't lose track of the brake strand. But for taking in small handfuls at a time it's fine to just slide your hand up. It's just going so far as to say something needs to be a certain way ALWAYS or NEVER is rarely true. |
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Which is exactly how you belay tr climbers on the alpine smart (BUS) |
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Sliding the brake hand up or down the rope has been the standard technique since belaying was first invented. The Mammut video is perfectly o.k. |
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Climb for joy wrote: This! As does the gym I goto which the owners and some of the gym staff are certified by these orginizations. I even tell people that I climb with not to practice improper belay technique taking up huge amounts of slack prior to the climb before anyone is officially on belay. No point in somehow giving yourself subconscious permission to use dangerous belay technique by accident because you do it some times. Good and thusly safe belay technique is a constant practice, and it sometimes needs adjustment via feedback from other climbers as it's not always easy to notice when we get used to what we are doing. Feeding slack on both the Alpine Smart Belay and a non-locking belay device, yes, the brake strand has to slide in your hand, particularly if you are doing more than one quick handful of slack pull for a non-locker, but the brake hand never leaves the rope like in the Mammut video for taking in slack and lowering.Are we watching the same video? At ~34 seconds when they are taking in slack the guy's hand never leaves the ropes. This method, the "slip and slide" is old school but perfectly safe. BUS is good for teaching to noobs who can't be trusted to grip firmly if a fall were to occur, but you do they exact same sliding motion when feeding slack with an atc, you certainly don't bring your feed hand down below the device to grip while you slide, and if you've ever had to catch someone when they blow a clip, then this should be a natural reaction to grip the brake strand when someone falls. |
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Seriously! I feel like we are in an alternate reality, seeing different videos. |
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It is. No one is arguing otherwise. |
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Climb for joy wrote: The issue is that he is letting go of the brake strand even though the hand is encircling the rope with no grip on it. This is how you lose control of the rope on a non-locking belay device if the climber falls just at that moment when the belayer lets go of the brake strand.That´s us double-rope guys screwed then. If you do a trawl of the manufacturers videos of using their devices you will find that Mammut are following the majority opinion in sliding the brake hand. |
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its fine ... |
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I figured those things to be among the most drop-your-partner proof devices out there. Then I got dropped about 20 feet with one a couple months back. |
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people who bitch about the nuances of "perfect climbing technique" annoy me |
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Dylan B. wrote:(2) With the 9.5 mm rope, the device no longer can hold my weight by itself on rappel [...] It's likely that this will also mean that the assisted braking for a lead fall will also be significantly compromised [...] Translated into a fall rather than just a hang, I suspect the 9.5 could go whipping through the device if the brake hand was not gripping tightlyNow I'm curious. See, I've found in the gym that my Smart (the single-rope one) locks up more aggressively with greater impact forces- in fact if I pay rope out very slowly and gently, sometimes it never locks but if I jerk the climber strand it locks instantly. Do you have any desire to set up a stopper knot on your 9.5mm and, say, jump off a chair to see what happens? I'm trying to figure out how I can test this myself, but all I've got is an 8.2mm and a 9.8mm, and no solid anchors to jump on. |
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^^^Make sure you put a crash pad down first ;) |