Cobra Anchors -- Reviews?

Off topic, but if anyone is in need of the old 3/8" SS powerbolts, I have several boxes for sale. They are 3/8"X4" SS, box of 50 bolts for $155 shipped.

M Sprague wrote:The Fixe hangers are way better IMO. The only thing I could think of to improve them is to have the inside edges rounded a bit so they don't cut into carabiners as much.

I couldn't agree more with this. I have used at least 4 different hanger types and the Fixe hangers are big enough to clip easily and are much more resistant to spinning than Metolius, ClimbTech, or MadRock.

If they rounded the bottom edge they'd be all but perfect.

Micah Klesick wrote:I agree that the Cobra seems pretty substandard in the strength department.

Agreed. The UIAA requirement for anchors is 25kN shear, 20kN tension. You also have to take into account that with corrosion, which all plated steel bolts will eventually develop, the strength values will likely dip well below 1/2 the UIAA's minimum requirement which is so far outside of what is acceptable it's borderline negligence to install those things in the 3/8" version.

So you can get 1/2" SS wedge anchors in 2 3/4" length (standard length for 1/2" bolts in harder rocks) for $85 a box of 50 (or $105 a box for 3 3/4"). $1.85 a bolt is pretty damn cheap, and the bolt is well over UIAA standards (around 40kn), and will last so, so much longer than any plated bolt, no matter what environment. Is it really worth saving 75 cents to put lives at risk?
As far Kevin's argument that the cobra shouldn't be getting a bad rap, just the fact that Kevin felt he should upgrade the quality of bolt on high fall factor bolts means it deserves that bad rap. When someone doesn't trust a 1/2" bolt enough to actually modify it with a different bolt, that should be enough to not use those bolts IMO.

Micah Klesick wrote:So you can get 1/2" SS wedge anchors in 2 3/4" length (standard length for 1/2" bolts in harder rocks) for $85 a box of 50 (or $105 a box for 3 3/4").

Please post a link to your pricing source.

What I find especially surreal is the fact that Kevin posts a link on his home page about the extreme importance of only using CE/ UIAA certified gear, "taking responsibility" and how they "are commited to making the highest quality products possible." Yet, their new flagship bolt does not even come remotely close to meeting CE or UIAA certifications for use as a climbing anchor. Ridiculous.

fixehardware.com/shop/got-l…

What is worse yet is the Cobra bolts he sells also happen to be Home Depot's flagship bolt (or at lease they used to be). I remember back a few years ago I actually bought a number of those bolts and pull tested them. I found the strengths varied quite wildly, and some of the samples failed below the rating. I calculated the 3Sigma rating based on my pull tests, and while I forgot what it was I recall it was lower than the already low stamped rating on the packaging. I recall the bolts being very much like what I would expect from Home Depot.

Monomaniac wrote: Please post a link to your pricing source.

2.75" x 1/2" - wholesalepowertools.com/pow…
3.75" x 1/2" - wholesalepowertools.com/pow…

So to clarify.....I am not the same Kevin as the one at FIXE, (felt like some of you may have made that assumption, could be mistaken) Also, I am not endorsing 3/8" Cobra Bolts. I do not use them so naturally I cannot add or take away anything as to their reliability. I do however use and endorse their 1/2" anchors, and yes, I have replaced "on occasion" the threaded shaft core with a solid shaft bolt on high stress clips. Do I wish they all came with solid shaft bolts? Absolutely! I also wish that Powers would leave the design alone and the price - but they didn't, so I've had to adapt.

To use an analogy, building something "to code" simply translated means "minimum standard". That doesn't mean that better options don't exist. When I replace a threaded shaft on a 1/2" anchor with a solid one, I am already exceeding any minimum standard just by using 1/2' anchors. So I am being overtly responsible by taking the extra step.

My primary argument is that I don't endorse the mind-set that if you can't use SS hardware, or SS glue-ins, you shouldn't be bolting anything. (At least in my neck of the woods) That's like saying skiers should only ski green runs, while wearing airbags, in bounds, with a beacon. The simple truth is, like skiing, climbing is inherently dangerous. And just like in skiing, 99% of the time, the resort is not liable for your injuries because of that fact. (I am a ski industry professional w/ 20 years exp.) They provide the lift, mother nature provides the snow. The rest is up to your judgement. Sure, using SS hardware is ideal, just like no trees on a run is ideal, or no unmarked obstacles is ideal.

The most ironic part of this whole conversation is that in my 30 years of climbing, 80% of it has been on trad gear. In that time, I have come across dozens of trad routes with X rated, no-pro run-outs where I would have given my left nut (chock?) for a bolt, even a non UIAA approved, rusty 3/8" bolt from Home Depot on the off chance it would hold. Strangely, most in the climbing community hail these routes as "Bold" or some other pseudo-complimentary adjective that not only makes them OK but promotes them on some level. There is little talk of the the route developer being "negligent". So while that camp is debating "anchor or no anchor" the bolt camp is pouring over the minutia of which UIAA approved anchor is superior.

BTW, *DrRockso* I think it is amazing what they are doing in Red Rive Gorge. It sounds like the climbing community is engaged in something worthwhile, providing support (financially is better than nothing) to the folks who are actually out there making the improvements. The rest of our major climbing communities should take heed and try to emulate this idea.

Cobra Strength Chart for Supersleeve Bolts

Micah Klesick, above is the tech chart for Cobra. The unmodified 1/2" anchors are well above the UIAA standard of 25kn for shear and 20 for pull. Not being argumentative, just making sure the facts are known so people can make an educated decision.

Thomas Beck, you asked about pitting in plated hardware. I have replaced approx 24 anchors in the last 5 years on routes all over Utah. In the dry areas the pitting was minimal on anchors that had recorded FA's in the early 90's. I have a friend in the Engineering Dept. at the University of Utah who agreed to test them (for fun, they are always looking for something to test) I had them test 10 samples. The batch averaged 4325 lbs. (only shear was tested) two of the samples had greater corrosion due to metallurgical incompatibility. If those two were thrown out, the averaged jumped to 5415 lbs. Both are below the 25kn UIAA standard but surprisingly high considering their estimated age of 18-22 years.

Kevin Rogers wrote:My primary argument is that I don't endorse the mind-set that if you can't use SS hardware, or SS glue-ins, you shouldn't be bolting anything. (At least in my neck of the woods) That's like saying skiers should only ski green runs, while wearing airbags, in bounds, with a beacon. The simple truth is, like skiing, climbing is inherently dangerous.

Your skiing analogy does not fit. A skier who chooses to ski the dangerous slopes is not going to damage the slope because he is making a poor decision, but a developer who uses the wrong material can damage the rock and cause extra work. Bolting with SS hardware is about longevity. You could inspect your plated bolts every six months and replace them as needed but that will cause harm to the rock. Often when bolts are replaced the new bolt is installed right next to the old one, drilling a second, third or even fourth hole. Sometimes the hole can be reused, sometimes it cannot, but in every case it takes a ton of time and effort to go back and fix someone's ghetto rigging. Furthermore, even if you were willing to regularity inspect and replace your plated steel bolts (very unlikely), you wont be around forever and eventually someone is going to have to fix your work because you took shortcuts in the beginning.

For what it is worth the UIAA doesent even want 304 stainless steel in use outside. Last I heard, the latest reversion of their age-old bolting standard was that they wanted all anchors to be at least 316SS, even in the desert.

Kevin Rogers,

Here I am trying to make a safe and also affordable decision.

I am sitting about 175 plated Fixe hangers. I was caught with my pants down on the Powers change. Ignorant till I saw this thread. The old style 3/8 Powers bolts were sweet. I could get up to 10 hole per battery with my ancient Bosch and a sharp bit. Now with 1/2" dia. holes I will get substantially less but bo-ho right?

I have about 40 Powers old style bolts. Now I am looking for the best solution wherein I can use these 175 Fixe plated hangers. I read all the pdf spec sheets; Powers and Cobra.

Those 1/2" Cobras might fit the bill if their quality is consistent enough. I want to know what practical install problems I should be looking for...if any.

I am projecting in a dry environment and most of my lines are less than vertical. I doubt most falls will generate 25 KN. In limestone. I realistically expect the hardware to last about 20 to 25 years.

Kevin Rogers wrote: Micah Klesick, above is the tech chart for Cobra. The unmodified 1/2" anchors are well above the UIAA standard of 25kn for shear and 20 for pull. Not being argumentative, just making sure the facts are known so people can make an educated decision.

I've seen the chart. Yes, its a little above the UIAA standard, in 1/2" only. However, Fixe selling the 3/8" ones is scary to me. 1/2" I can see them justify selling the to developers that insist on using non-stainless. But the 3/8"!? We are talking 12kn and 13kn in pull and shear!! That's not acceptable!! But because they are sold as climbing bolts, people that don't know any better will go do what most developers do, and go buy the cheapest thing that is sold by a climbing store assuming they are strong enough to be used as climbing anchors...
You use the 1/2" cobras, and since they are strong enough to meet the UIAA standard, and you bolt in an area where they won't rust as fast, I won't disagree that they are safe to use for climbing. I still disagree that plated is still an option that should be used anywhere, but that's my opinion. That's all.

Thomas Beck wrote: I realistically expect the hardware to last about 20 to 25 years.

I think that's an unrealistic expectation of plated steel. There are bolts far younger than that in Red Rocks that are not in the best shape. Before the bolts in the Black Corridor of Red Rocks were replaced, a number of them were in pretty bad shape, heavy rust and such, and they were all far younger than 25 years and they were in a desert climate.

Tom, PLEASE sell those hangers to someone developing soft sandstone, St. George or secret areas or wherever, and buy stainless for limestone. Even dry desert limestone bolts around Vegas are going to be super rusty below the surface in only 10 years (if not 5 or less!). At least in soft sandstone the water evaporates out through the rock and there is minimal rusting, so they actually should last 20-25 years. Some spots in Red Rocks have good enough varnish that the water is trapped and you get bad rusting, but that's not common except for good black varnish.

I think a lot of developers somehow think the ASCA or others will replace all their bolts in a couple decades. There's just no way that is realistic. Even with hordes of qualified rebolters - which is not that likely - the sheer cost of stainless bolts for all the plated bolts being placed all over the country is far beyond what donations we receive. Let's say 100,000 plated bolts (probably FAR lower than actual), with bolt price rapidly heading to $10/bolt even with huge bulk orders, and you're talking a million dollars. FAR beyond the kind of donations the ASCA takes in even if you add up many years worth. Are route developers expecting the AF and AAC to close up shop and send all their money to bolt replacement? If they did that, our favorite crags would end up closed and the bolts would end up being pulled by the government.

Please route developers - try to develop the best lines, use stainless, and leave the other lines you want to bolt to future generations. Take the same $$ you'd use for 100 new bolts and buy 50 good stainless bolts instead. Put up half the routes, take pride in your lines, and leave some space for others. I know some top climbers who do exactly that, even when they've TR'd the lines, know they'd go right now, and can afford the bolts just fine. They leave the lines alone and 20 years or more later when someone does the FA they'll have no idea it was toproped decades earlier.

Thomas Beck,

I am going to have to concur with what a few others have said about using plated hangers and plated 3/8" hardware in limestone. I don't use 3/8" hardware for anything but hard granite and quartzite but its the water absorption properties of limestone and sandstone that can make it dangerous. I also question how effective a 3/8 expansion style bolt would be in limestone. 1/2" are a little better as they have greater surface area but to be honest, I would reconsider the idea. I know that's not what you want to hear but the folks are telling you straight. Limestone is famous for water retention and though I am not positive I believe the pH of limestone is more prone to cause rust. I would look to unload the excess hangers to someone developing a more hydrophobic rock. Good luck buddy.

Micah Klesick,

I could not agree with you more. The 3/8 hardware from Cobra is nowhere near the standards we need them to be at. That's why I don't use them. I also agree that it's a little troubling that Fixe is selling them as climbing hardware. I can only hope that by the time someone gets to the point of placing bolts, they will have researched the subject and hopefully decided against it. That might be wishful thinking.

20kn,

Your points are valid and ones I did not consider in my post. There are people out there who will drill right next to an old hole without even trying to reuse the original and I too find that to be ridiculous. I am able to re-use the same hole 75% of the time but of course I also make it a point to try.

Your usage of terms like "ghetto hardware" however are exactly what I am referring to. Even stainless anchors will need maintenance, and one day when Ti glue-in anchors are the elite flavor of the month, your SS anchors will be "ghetto" by their standards too. Where will it end? When all climbing anchors are way over priced, over regulated, and companies stop making them because the sales numbers plummet so low that it no longer makes any kind of business sense. Hell, if Powers, arguably the bolting standard for the last 20 years, has already given the climbing community the proverbial finger because we don't make up a large enough customer base to warrant any design input, what makes us think that anyone else will? Simple supply and demand. Now instead of a $5 anchor, you have a $30 Ti anchor that requires a $4 glue cartridge. At that point new route development slows to a crawl (not a tradgedy) but with time, all those "ghetto" bolts we all have been climbing on for decades (and miraculously survived) begin to age out and replacing them with anything but Ti anchors will be difficult because it will be illegal. We can't even afford to replace all the plated anchors with SS, so how do we manage the next level of regulation? We probably don't. Climbs start drying up, within 25 years the catalog of routes is cut in half but the guidebooks are still out there. So kids that wanna get out of the climbing gym and actually touch a rock like their Pappy did end up decking in droves while their buddies post viral videos their favorite social media platform, and overnight kids stop leaving the gym. Well less people at the local crag may seem like a great thing on some days but less real climbers means less people who care about this issue. (Think social security) So in 30 years, you and I can go climb together in our late 60's on one of the 6 routes approved by the UIAA, OSHA, and Green Peace while the kids at school read about the roaring 2000's where people just bolted stuff all day with Ghetto Hardware.

Be careful what you wish for my friend. You might just get it.

Solace wrote:20kn, Your points are valid and ones I did not consider in my post. There are people out there who will drill right next to an old hole without even trying to reuse the original and I too find that to be ridiculous. I am able to re-use the same hole 75% of the time but of course I also make it a point to try. Your usage of terms like "ghetto hardware" however are exactly what I am referring to. Even stainless anchors will need maintenance, and one day when Ti glue-in anchors are the elite flavor of the month, your SS anchors will be "ghetto" by their standards too. Where will it end? When all climbing anchors are way over priced, over regulated, and companies stop making them because the sales numbers plummet so low that it no longer makes any kind of business sense. Hell, if Powers, arguably the bolting standard for the last 20 years, has already given the climbing community the proverbial finger because we don't make up a large enough customer base to warrant any design input, what makes us think that anyone else will? Simple supply and demand. Now instead of a $5 anchor, you have a $30 Ti anchor that requires a $4 glue cartridge. At that point new route development slows to a crawl (not a tradgedy) but with time, all those "ghetto" bolts we all have been climbing on for decades (and miraculously survived) begin to age out and replacing them with anything but Ti anchors will be difficult because it will be illegal. We can't even afford to replace all the plated anchors with SS, so how do we manage the next level of regulation? We probably don't. Climbs start drying up, within 25 years the catalog of routes is cut in half but the guidebooks are still out there. So kids that wanna get out of the climbing gym and actually touch a rock like their Pappy did end up decking in droves while their buddies post viral videos their favorite social media platform, and overnight kids stop leaving the gym. Well less people at the local crag may seem like a great thing on some days but less real climbers means less people who care about this issue. (Think social security) So in 30 years, you and I can go climb together in our late 60's on one of the 6 routes approved by the UIAA, OSHA, and Green Peace while the kids at school read about the roaring 2000's where people just bolted stuff all day with Ghetto Hardware. Be careful what you wish for my friend. You might just get it.

You're being pretty melodramatic. There is a pretty far gap between asking someone to use stainless steel and ending up with an environment where some SS-like authority forces you to choose from one of five state approved sport routes, come on man. Stainless steel is a good happy medium between cost and performance. At least one other developer posted a link where you can get 1/2" stainless steel bolts from Powers for less than $2 each. So we are talking maybe $1.60 each for plated or 15% extra for stainless steel which will last 200-500% longer. I think the price-to-performance ratio is optimal.

It's unrealistic to choose the absolute best material for bolting, you're right, but it's not unrealistic to choose a material with a better cost-to-performance ratio than carbon steel, and asking people to use stainless steel is not going to kill climbing, it's just the responsible thing to do.

20kn,

You are right. I mean that sincerely. I just watched Good Will Hunting and for some reason felt like launching into a rant. I wasn't being entirely serious. I place SS hardware when the climb requires it and I can get behind it 75% of the time. I just don't love the elite attittudes in the all or nothing camp.

In my younger days I worked as a backpacking/climbing guide for 8 years, mostly for younger males (15-20). I would always start my courses by asking the kids if they had backpacked or climbed previously. Too often the answer was no and the reason was that the gear was too expensive. I don't know why but that has always bugged me.

20 years ago when I was 17, I read John Muirs "My First Summer in the Sierra". I marveled at how this guy went out and enjoyed the alpine environment with a loaf of bread and a tarp. Now kids think you need an Arc Teryx backpack and an MSR tent along with a bunch of other incredibly expensive crap just to participate. But in truth, they don't.

Now I know climbing is not the same. The safety issues are important and I am not encouraging kids to tackle climbing with a rope from Home Depot and a few 1/4 nail drives. But that being said, I want it to be accessible, to as many people as possible. Not just an elite few who can afford to place top of the line hardware all the time.

I do worry that climbing will, on some level, migrate further from the average kid as things become more expensive. I have seen it in the outdoor industry in both skiing and backpacking. I don't have the answer, I wish I did.

Sorry again for the rant. It was largely intended to be satirical.

I read Kevin Daniel's statement as they will not carry the 3/8" cobra as he feels the stud is under sized.

The stud bolts mentioned are suitable for a significantly smaller set of use cases than the power/rawl bolt. A carbon steel 1/2 × 3 3/4" power bolt is about 2 bucks. The 1/2" ss 2 3/4 power bolt is 5 bucks and the ss 4 1/2" rawl nears 10 dollars, if not more, depending on the volume.

Moving up to ss is often not the 30% premium listed but 250% or more (500% if long ss sleeve anchors are required).
5 minutes from the road and rad? Might want to make it last. Obscure POS? Maybe the best thing is to let that mank rust away from memory.
Only one given here: I'll use the hardware I see fit and you will use the hardware you see fit. Which is the way it should be.

The FA credit is good as it brings a measure of accountability and can describe a climber in many ways.